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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

New Bond Takes a Shot at 4K

I guess somebody didn't like Illya & I mentioning the other 4K cameras on the market. Or it may have been some of the other comments I had, which I didn't consider anti-RED or anti-Dalsa or anti-anybody.
 
I think that we're at the point where all the competitive "Digital Cinema" cameras are putting out very good looking images. I think that output quality wise they're all worthy of being on the set of a serious production.

When I say "Digital Cinema" I'm refering to the cameras that were designed to fit relatively well in a production that would of otherwise originated on 35mm. Even thought the f900/varicam were first pitched as such, they're more of hybrids in my opinion. I guess the Viper was the next step up and finally the RED ONE, DALSA Origin, F35, Arri D20, etc are in the position of being considered worthy of the term "digital cinema cameras" since they all play very nicely with established motion picture camera accesories, provide DOF to have the same flexibility we're used to on 35mm and provide a smoother functional transition than the previous generation 2/3" imager systems.

Am I the only one that feels that wether one or the other resolves a few more lines or a stop more here and there is not as important as some people want to make it seem? My personal opinion is that when it comes to straight shooting 1080P-2K (@ full luma/chroma sampling/space) is the threshold where bigger numbers start making smaller differences (at least in 99% of presentation enviroments I can think of).

To me it waters down to the pros and cons of each one of them considered on a project specific basis. I have a RED ONE but we've been shooting 35mm and HDCAM and even plain DV on many projects (by our choice). Hell, we also shot 30+ carts of super-8 last year. I'd like to be able to use the Origin on a few projects here and there too. I do believe in testing, I just don't believe on basing choices only on technical tests though. I personally almost always use some sort of diffusion on film so why would I be concerned if camera A resolves a few more lp/mm than cam B?

My opinion... the pros and cons (from a film-style POV) that make the biggest impact to me are:

RED
Pros: The most versatile one out there by far (what other tool in this industry has the range of appeal from enthusiasts to people with three letter annexes to their names (eg...ASC), I can afford to have one just sitting in my closet right now, With a bit of attention to detail in post it cuts really nicely with our archival film clips. It's also comparatively pretty small and light and it can be properly run with a very minimal crew (dare I even say one man camera dept...) if needed. Current workflow specifics can be a pro or con depending on the situation. Unrivaled price/performance and great implementation of a practical low compromise compression scheme. Development and fixes seem to happen quickly.

Cons: Not out of Beta yet, it's new so there's going to be some trial & error to go through both from the users and the developers. Needs to be "proved" on (the release a few features should acomplish that).

DALSA (I have no hands on experience):
Pros: It's been refined for some time, optical VF a plus for some, rental only model and attention to detail means cameras and lenses are always performing at their best. It also means that they offer full support under one roof. Uncompressed data recording a plus in specific situations. Mechanical shutter. They're a sensor design company second to none (perhaps Kodak) in the sci & tech industry.

Cons: Rental cost, data wrangling requirements. Size, Design & Weight (although it's gotten much, much better than the first generation, I think P+S Technik helped).

I don't have finalized info on the Sony F35 but if it's like the F23 with a 35mm sensor I'd have to say pros are that they're the evolution of their already proven technology, they claim them to be totally different but I look at them as evolutions of the F900/F950. Cons would definitely be the size/weight cost plus the damn tape deck in many situations. From what I've seen, the F23 still has the essence of video to me, but thats probably going to improve with the F35.

The Palm Treo 755p:
Pros: small, light, no need to focus, quick workflow.
Cons: Matte box and rods make it a bit front heavy. No MXF data/proxies.
 
the Palm Treo 755p .... LOL
 
The disappearance of posts here is becomming a PITA and a constant ridicule around the web..

Silly statements will vanish all by them selves.

I am on quite a few boards, and have never seen anything like this. I DO understand that Jarred owns the site and is offering us a service, but I think as much as internet helped promote RED, this is a backwards firing strategy.

I don't particulary agree or disagree with the posts, but what happened to this thread and the Scratch thread is pretty rad, by any standards.

Laguun may be a PITA with his "OM" about Scratch workflow, and others may point out that RED isn't the only 4k cam around and that the Phantom (which Jarred seemed to like a lot back in the dvxuser days) has a 65mm cam.

To me that's all fun info, as I'll never have access to DALSA here in Norway anyway... come to think of it, there isn't even a D20 or Phantom outlet around the corner :)

I think it's real cool to have DALSA here, and really miss input from SI on some of the issues discussed. I've heard really bad things about the SI workflow from some, and excellent reviews from others. That does not make me a RED user, just a more educated REDuser.

And Laguuns point about not being able to preview 4k footy while you edit in Scratch is just what it says on the package and is not making me more or less interested in Scratch. Really, RED is all about choices and the openness on good as well as problematic issues have made us truely only believe more in the product, not less. Laguun wants more, and now posts less. Is that a win situation for the comunity?
And does that point make me a more or less intersted Scratch customer?
Nope

But the deliting of his posts makes me a less likely Scratch customer.

When Jay finds a solution that works for him (cineform RAW transcoder) I can understand why it's not REDs preffered workflow solution as of today, but I am VERY happy that he finds a way to work in an environment he finds comfortable. I DO understand why RED does not want partners-to-be to put out not-so-good solutions prematurely, but I cannot see why a single users success needs to be cencored.

Tomorrow I'll be getting hands on with my RED, and it's like the christmass of all christmasses (except from when I got my DW drums... :), and I really love what's going on here. But I think RED/Jarrred/Mods should reconsider how the policy of disappearing posts reflects on their business. In my eyes it is not very good.

If these posts were purely advertising for other products, I could understand it, but as far as I've seen, they've been in context and a matter of open discussion. I can really see why the DALSA and 007 deal pisses RED off, but what RED might consider is that those kind of stories doesn't really matter for their main buyer base. And if it matters, it matters less than Soderbergh or Harry Potter (for promotional use) there's only so many 007 films made and we're a customerbase of almost 4000 already. No reason to be paranoid.
We'll collectively push out more material than a 007 movie every day....

And that may or may not make a lot of sense for the quality discussion. But RED has already made the point: Blue channel noise or not, it works pretty darned well.

I'll be picking up my RED tomorrow, and it is a 2 year dream-come-true. Really.
And I will probably hang around here, read and post like the madman I am. But this silly deliting of posts really puts me off in a big way.

Thanks to RED for this great cam. And I guess this post will be deleted....

Gunleik
 
gunleik said:
The disappearance of posts here is becomming a PITA
Click to expand...
I agree. I think its ok when red & dalsa decide to have a gentlemen agreement and remove posts, sad but understandable.

What however is becoming a real issue is that sales employees of 3hrd party manufacturers are censoring facts out. That is a shame for reduser.net, and speaks volumes IMHO.

gunleik said:
Silly statements will vanish all by them selves.
Click to expand...
yes.
 
bond-22.jpg

The film crew of "Quantum of Solace" in the northern Antofagasta city in Chile, with an ARRIFLEX 435 Xtreme . This picture was shot yesterday.

We have to be happy and proud that there are already a couple features shot or will be shot soon full RED.
 
Hawaj said:
What, Jim was out of line?

Also very interesting thread, formerly started by Chris Lyon in "Footage/Field Tests" section evaporated to outer space.
After clicking on "Moved: RED Not Good Enough for James Bond" thread I got this message:

"you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:
Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation."

Ummm ... tell me what I should think about this? :wacko: :umm: :angry03:

On others forums if moderators delete some posts or whole thread they put on its place short message like:
Post from Mr. Whatever was deleteted beceause of bla bla bla ...
Then I know where I am and dont feel like I am living in paralel universe unsure if my brain has some drop-outs or not :ranting2:
Click to expand...

I saw that message too when I went to click on it, who knows really.
 
laguun said:
I agree. I think its ok when red & dalsa decide to have a gentlemen agreement and remove posts, sad but understandable.

What however is becoming a real issue is that sales employees of 3hrd party manufacturers are censoring facts out. That is a shame for reduser.net, and speaks volumes IMHO.
Click to expand...

I hope you're not referring to me.

I'm not a sales employee and I have not censored any facts. If anyone at any time feels I've done something wrong I would respectfully ask them to please tell me so that I might correct it.
 
Mitch Gross said:
I guess somebody didn't like Illya & I mentioning the other 4K cameras on the market. Or it may have been some of the other comments I had, which I didn't consider anti-RED or anti-Dalsa or anti-anybody.
Click to expand...

You are correct; the comments weren't anti-anyone. You just stated facts.

I.

Illya Friedman
DALSA
Digital Cinema Division
www.dalsa.com/dc
 
gunleik said:
To me that's all fun info, as I'll never have access to DALSA here in Norway anyway... come to think of it, there isn't even a D20 or Phantom outlet around the corner :)
Click to expand...

Don't be so sure about that. :biggrin:

There's DALSA cameras in multiple countries in Europe right now.

I.

Illya Friedman
DALSA
Digital Cinema Division
www.dalsa.com/dc
 
There are Phantoms available around the globe as well.

Illya, this is fun in a sick sorta way, right?
 
No actually it's not that fun. We all need to remember we're guests in Jarred's house. He is being a kind and UNDERSTANDING host by allowing competitors to communicate and speak about most anything including their own products while visiting.

But never forget, Dalsa, Phantoms, 2ks... Must go home when it's time for dinner.

The higher end cameras are nice, and I am sure they do a fine job. I own a RED, and purchasing or renting another camera is not in my future right now.

I have no doubt that almost everyone who posts on this forum (Illya included) will agree that RED is an incredible piece of gear, and will do a lot of wonderful things for a lot of people, otherwise what's the point of being here?

Never forget, this is a company site. Jarred works for RED, and he supports it. This site is an extension of that. So just remember, we're guests here.

Is there a catch.....?

Yes...

It's also a customer feedback site and sometimes that can get a little sticky.

Jesus Jarred, I don't want your job.

:)

Jay
 
The Phantom is vastly more expensive than the RED. The Dalsa is not available for sale and certainly the rental rate is higher than one would be for a RED. These cameras complement the RED One. I don't think anyone should ever be looking at them as directly competing products. I do believe that there are many people on this forum who are going to use the RED One and do so in conjunction with other professional equipment and want to know about integrating one with another. I believe that this does fall under this definition. And Illya & I having a little fun playing off one another shouldn't be a big deal. Dalsa owns and rents out a Phantom HD after all.

It's reduser, not redowner.
 
In the end, it's not what you believe to be a big deal.. It's how the moderators take it.

As for it's reduser, not redowner.. For the life of me I have no idea what you're talking about here. Since this board is made of people who use, own, and just read about, this camera.

As for what is competition, and what is not. I'm not getting into that since it opens up another can of worms I don't need to dig into.

Bottom line: Let's all be polite and respectful of the host and we'll be fine. As for deletion of posts, it's their board. I don't like it when it happens, but it's their call to do so.

Have a good one

Jay
 
Anyway back to the subject...

EDIT: Apologies... my info was incorrect, sorry for any confusion!

I had previously presumed the Bond lot had chosen the Dalsa because it handled other aspects of shooting nicer than Red than simply the amount of data the uncompressed footage gave them.

Paul
 
PaulClements said:
On a shoot earlier this year a production tested our Red against Film, Genesis and the Dalsa and chose to use the Red camera for the final shoot.
Click to expand...

Which project is this and when? The only test I recall to also include a Genesis, the end result was that the production chose 35mm Anamorphic film, no digital. Red wasn't present during the test.

The test I'm referring to was not shot in 2008! And was shot with the now non-existent version I of the Origin camera. The minor visual artifacts from Origin I cameras, were removed with the upgrade of the fleet to Origin II.

AFAIK, there has never been a side by side test of Genesis, 35mm Anamorphic (and/or spherical), DALSA Origin II and Red. Although I would gladly welcome such a test.

Every project that has shot with a DALSA camera this year, including James Bond, used the Origin II.

I.

Illya Friedman
DALSA
Digital Cinema Division
www.dalsa.com/dc
 
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