Can I make a broadcast wildlife doc with Red?

[Thomas Winston]

I've been following the feedback on this camera both here and at cinematography.com and I still can't figure out if this camera will work for what I do. I know if I was shooting a feature or commercials, it would be great, but is it a reliable ENG camera???

I'm producing/shooting a 1hr for Nat. Geo Channel about Grizzly bears- and I would love to shoot it on Red- this is what I need to know:

1) Start-up Time: Exactly how long does it take to boot-up? Will the boot-up time be improved with future 'builds', or is it inherent to the camera?

2) Overheating: Are the cameras still overheating? If it overheats, how long does it take to re-boot. I'm shooting in Montana, and temps can get into the 90s, but it is very dry.

3) ENG lenses: How are ENG lenses working on this camera? I plan to shoot on the image stabilized Fujinon 40x, will this work? I understand that I'll need to shoot in the windowed 2K mode, is this correct? Is there anything I should know about shooting in 2k? What frame rates are currently available at 2k


These are all deal-breakers for me. I spend too much $, time and energy getting in place to photograph wild grizzlies for the camera to fail. Depending on what I learn from this posing and NAB developments, we will either shoot on the RED or the HPX3000.

Thanks for the objective feedback,

Thomas

 

[Greg Syverson]

Where will you be shooting footage of the Bears?

 

[Greg Syverson]

 

[Dylan Macleod CSC]

It depends on what your priority is. There are mounts to shoot with ENG lenses. But then you would be shooting a smaller part of the sensor. More depth of field. Which is good for ENG. Hmmm, but now the question is...why not just shoot with an ENG camera then?

If this is going to be finished HD and you aren't going to shoot 4K for shallow depth of field, I don't see the point of shooting with RED. Especially in the spontaneous situations you may find yourself in.

Now a Phantom, with its two second record buffer would be pretty cool for getting those shots of a bear nabbing a salmon or some other "time sensitive" event.

Note: I really am a RED lover (and soon to be owner), but it is not the "cure all":blush:

Dylan Macleod
Cinematographer
Toronto, Canada
www.dylanmacleod.com

 

[Stuart English]

Wildlife Usage

Wildlife Usage

How are ENG lenses working on this camera? I plan to shoot on the image stabilized Fujinon 40x, will this work? I understand that I'll need to shoot in the windowed 2K mode, is this correct? Is there anything I should know about shooting in 2k? What frame rates are currently available at 2k

2/3" zoom lenses can be interfaced via the B4 adaptor and controlled (power for the zoom lens and remote start / stop) via the LEMO to Hirose cable adaptor accessories.

Yes you would be in 2K RAW mode, and to CF cards we currently support 100 fps in 16:9 aspect and 113 fps at 2:1 aspect. For RED-DRIVE the 2:1 goes up to 120 fps.

 

[Dylan Macleod CSC]

2/3" zoom lenses can be interfaced via the B4 adaptor and controlled (power for the zoom lens and remote start / stop) via the LEMO to Hirose cable adaptor accessories.

Yes you would be in 2K RAW mode, and to CF cards we currently support 100 fps in 16:9 aspect and 113 fps at 2:1 aspect. For RED-DRIVE the 2:1 goes up to 120 fps.

I overlooked the obvious advantage of high speed with the RED.

Thanks Stuart.

Dylan Macleod
Cinematographer
Toronto, Canada
www.dylanmacleod.com

 

[Eddie]

I think you might want to consider a birger canon-mount with this lens

http://www.sigmaphoto.com/lenses/lenses_all_details.asp?id=3308&navigator=3

and skip the b4 adapter. Then you can shoot 4k, (and crop in post if you need to).

 

[Thomas Winston]

2/3" zoom lenses can be interfaced via the B4 adaptor and controlled (power for the zoom lens and remote start / stop) via the LEMO to Hirose cable adaptor accessories.

Yes you would be in 2K RAW mode, and to CF cards we currently support 100 fps in 16:9 aspect and 113 fps at 2:1 aspect. For RED-DRIVE the 2:1 goes up to 120 fps.

Thanks, Stuart.

What about the start-up time and overheating issues?

 

[Steve Gibby]

Thomas,

An alliance company and our company (GibCor) are currently co-producing several television programs for national and international distribution in 2009, and a feature for 2009 release - and all of these productions are in the nature genre. We're using six RED ONE cameras (plus 2 more to be delivered shortly), a Sony HDC1500, a Sony F900, and two Sony EX1.

If you've been reading threads here on RED User, you should know that the field and post workflow for RED ONE is different than that of tape-based or IT based cameras that shoot RGB. RED shoots RAW, so the acquisition and processing of the footage is different.

Among other genres and styles, I've also been shoot nature subjects heavily for over half a year with my RED cameras. With RED I've shot nature footage with a cine-style setup in 4k and 3k using my Canon FD 150-600 zoom (PL mount, but not using MB or FF), my RED 300 prime (no FF or MB), and a rented Optimo 24-290 zoom (with MB). I've had the RED EVF and RED Drive for months now, so that is what I used for those setups.

I've also shot a lot of nature using a straight EFP style setup, using the RED EVF, RED Drive, RED B4 Adaptor, Fujinon 22x7.3 EFP/ENG zoom, and RED cable to power the lens.

For nature motion shots I shot the highest frame rates each resolution and camera build will allow. I shot a large percentage of the nature shots on the Mammoth HD RED Library of stock footage - sea elephants, zebras, pelicans, butterflies, seagulls, etc. You can find them via the link under my signature at the bottom of this post. The underwater wildlife shots on the MHD RED library were shot by my production partner (Ken Corben).

-----------------------------------

Keeping the above in mind, here's my take on the questions you asked:

Overheating of RED has yet to be an issue with our shooting. We've shot in a wide variety of environments: desert, mountains, tropics, underwater, etc. RED has a choice of fan settings, beyond the default.

Startup times with RED have been consistently dropping with each firmware version. I haven't timed it lately, but it seems like our REDs, which are now running Build 15, boot up in about 35 seconds.

In B4 2/3" HD EFP/ENG zooms, we've shot with a Fujinon 42x, Canon 40x, Fujinon 22x, and Fujinon 13x on our REDs. The results were excellent, and the addition of REDCODE36, and higher frame rates has made 2k shooting with RED even better.

If you're doing National Geographic shows then they are non-hardlined EFP programs - not ENG (electronic news gathering) - thus you don't have a quick turnaround on the shows - thus using RED in RAW is not a problem. Besides our other genres of productions, we also do nature shows for National Geographic, Discovery, and others - and we're using the cameras I listed in my opening paragraph of this post.

Among many other animals, I'll also be shooting grizzlies this spring, summer, and fall using our RED cameras. My setup for that? RED ONE, for lenses a choice of Canon FD 150-600 zoom (with 1.4x extender available if needed) and RED 300 prime with Century 2x extender, RED EVF, RED Drive, ET ARRI 19mm bridge plate w/ rods (no matte box or follow focus), Miller Arrow 55 tripod with ET ARRI base adapted. For months now, I've been hiking into wilderness by myself with this entire kit in my Tamrac backpack, on my shoulder (tripod), assembling the camera, shooting, disassembling the camera, and hiking out. All footage with this kit will be in 4k 16x9 and 3k 16x9.

I hope the above info helps you in making your decision for your grizzly program. Yes, you can use your Fujinon 40x with RED, in tandem with a RED EVF, RED Drive, RED B4 adaptor, and do your program in 2k. If you do, I'd suggest you use REDCODE36.

Of all the genres I shoot, nature is my favorite...

Good luck on your project...

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Thomas,

I just wanted to add a few comments. Start-up times are about 35 seconds like Gibby pointed out. Overheating isn't a problem really as long as you're smart about your shooting environment. Keep the camera protected, as you should with any camera. This should not be a concern if you're in locations around grizzly bears... Now if you were heading to Tucson in July, that would be a different concern and that HPX3000 would likely overheat on you too.

The camera does well shooting with B4 lenses in 2K mode. But the real strength of the camera is the higher-res 3K and 4K modes. You can get up to 60fps in 3K, 30fps in 4K.

The camera is great and constantly improving. The post workflow holds something different for everyone and it can be daunting if you or your studio are unable to set up right to handle it. My best recommendation is that you rent a RED One for a couple days and see how it works for you or find someone in your area who would be willing to give you a demonstration (you seeking information for a potential rental).

 

[Ed Watkins]

Hey Tom,
I take it you finally got your hands on a RED? Or is it John Shires?

Anyway I've been out here in Panama for the last week or so shooting solo on a wildlife doc with my RED with a set of Nikon lenses. I've got a day off today.

There are a few things I'd note:
Overheating is not a problem here (90 degrees, 80% humidity).
It's surprisingly heavy, more so than a Varicam / F900.
The ports are all uncovered (why? I ask, why?).
The startup time in conjunction with the 1hr battery life can be a killer for some behavior shots, a 'sleep' mode is something that is desperately needed.
There are some funky codec issues with the current builds (it seems to crap out when panning up into the canopy exposing for the leaves. I think the high detail of the leaves, and overexposed bits of sky over stretches the codec at present)

I'm currently not sure whether I'm in love or hate with the RED for wildlife.
It is certainly more of a hassle than an HPX or Varicam, but the 4K images it produces are stunning (although they aren't entirely noiseless, especially when shooting in the low light of the jungle). However, the ability to crop down / re frame from 4K to 2K is spectacular, and can give some amazing shots.

Here are a few I shot over the last few days (quick screen grabs from REDCINE, basic 'S' curve and saturation applied).

 

[Greg Syverson]

Thanks for sharing the screen shots. It is so nice to see the work 35mm lenses with depth of field.

Great job!

 

[James Brundige]

Thanks for those great shots, Ed.

I am moving to Red because I have just thrown out 20 years of hard won nature footage in Standard Definition. Never again. I'll shoot in 2K, 3K, or 4K and down res my footage to whatever broadcast standard the industry settles on.

I'm thinking 3K as a compromise between quality and storage. Or should it be 4K?

Gibby - what does Mammoth HD prefer?

 

[Clark Dunbar]

Ed,

the stills look great - can't wait to see the r3d's.

Mammoth HD's - 1st preference is for 4K/16x9, but with that said, what ever the best frame rate for the subject.. and glass that you have available. So 4k , then 3K then 2K all at the highest bitrate.....

 

[Ed Watkins]

Ed,

the stills look great - can't wait to see the r3d's.

Mammoth HD's - 1st preference is for 4K/16x9, but with that said, what ever the best frame rate for the subject.. and glass that you have available. So 4k , then 3K then 2K all at the highest bitrate.....

Hey Clark, I'm shooting Redcode 28 (because of storage constraints) is that going to be a problem for you guys? It didn't even cross my mind until I read your post! PM me.

 

[Clark Dunbar]

Hi Ed,

RedCode 28 is great, but given the choice we'd go for the higher bitrate, as it should allow more options when fulling the various enduser requirements... but we have the original RED files that look fantastic and now we have even better material with the upgrade of 28 and 36 options

 

[Thomas Winston]

Ed- The screen grabs look amazing, but your experiences do scare me. Like I said in the original post, I think this is a great camera, but I don't know if it will work in our genre in its current form.

My order hasn't come up yet and I'm on the fence. I may make the trip to NAB to make the final decision.

Where are you going from Panama? UK or US? I would love to talk through all your experiences when you have a chance.

 

[Ed Watkins]

Ed- The screen grabs look amazing, but your experiences do scare me. Like I said in the original post, I think this is a great camera, but I don't know if it will work in our genre in its current form.

My order hasn't come up yet and I'm on the fence. I may make the trip to NAB to make the final decision.

Where are you going from Panama? UK or US? I would love to talk through all your experiences when you have a chance.

Hey Tom,

When are you planning on shooting? If it's a good few months away I think you'll have a far smoother experience with the RED than I. In it's current form it is certainly more difficult to shoot with than the HPX's.

For me, what it comes down to is a trade off between 4K images (either for a film out, or for a crop and re-scale to HD) and ease of use.

If you want huge flexibility in resizing, color correction, and stock footage potential, use a RED and bring a camera assistant.

If you want to make sure you get every shot, don't need to film out or crop, and don't want the extra hassle, use an HPX.

I'll be in USA next week (Colorado), give me a call if you want.

 

[Philip Lima]

I agree with Ed. We purchased our RED with the idea of shooting wildlife in the field. We have used an HVX since it was available and though it is much simpler and lighter, the RED just produces images that can't even begin to compare. We have had issues with grain with our HVX, even in bright light. Having complete control over most everything with the RED is a huge plus.

The minus is having to bring a camera assistant everywhere. But, when it comes down to it. We think it is well worth it!

Right now, we are shooting a few nature/wildlife films and series with our RED in the field. We haven't gone too far yet, only because we are still perfecting the camera settings and workflow. As soon as we have it, we're going deep into the field.

 

[Thomas Winston]

laselvasurf- once you figure out your settings and workflow, can you let us know?