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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

SCRATCH Price

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PapaBear

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So, has anyone actually been able to get the list price for SCRATCH, fully-configured? If so, I think the number would be of great interest to this community...
 
PapaBear said:
So, has anyone actually been able to get the list price for SCRATCH, fully-configured? If so, I think the number would be of great interest to this community...
Click to expand...

Ahh the price of scratch seems to be the best kept secret in the industry today.

IMHO possibly waiting for a Merger & Acquisition from one of the big boys? Apple, Avid, Red ... any takers.
 
Finner said:
Ahh the price of scratch seems to be the best kept secret in the industry today.
Click to expand...

Maybe it's because they don't have a set price and they set it according to how much money they perceive they can get out of their marks... er, clients. :) (just kidding... :innocent: I love scratch and wish I could afford it... if only I knew how much it actually costs... do I really have to call them just to find out?).
 
luki will give you a price for any config you want. just email him or PM.
he sent it to me
 
I hope I’m wrong, but I always thought that there was something fishy about companies refusing to name the list price for their products... However, after Steve Sherrick’s answer I realized that my question (our question, in fact) could be too general, and that we should maybe ask Assimilate the following about SCRATCH:

1. How much it is the list price for the modules?
2. How much it is the list price for the hardware component?
3. How much it is the list price for the Red package?

Again, it is about the list price and not about “special deals” one could negotiate with the company. And it is about a matter of principle: to openly disclose to prospective buyers, in good faith, all the details about the product you are trying to sell, including a reference price.
 
If your just using Scratch to conform and rough grade R3d files it
would probably be a lot less than 50K but if pumping out 2K realtime
and have it connected to a SAN or BOXX setup then it would be be getting up there, way up there. It's 'how long is a piece of string?' pricing, and probably
the only way they can do it. Competition like Speedgrade will quote a software price and it's on the website. Still a lot more than FCS2 & COLOR.
Mezmo
 
There isn't any big secrets, just email Lucas, set up a demo if you like and he will provide you a quotation based upon the configuration that you determine you will need. I did, it was a great experience and its a hell of a product too. Can't wait to get a seat.
 
Guys, I'm not sure why it's such a big dead to email Lucas ? It doesn't take much. He has offered to give you any pricing you require and also explained why Assimilate operate the way they do. They are under no obligation to do anything else..

I can tell you first hand that Lucas is an extremely helpful and attentive guy, if you are genuinely interested in Scratch then drop him a line and I'm sure you won't be disappointed.
 
that's the way they do business ...
if i remember correctly there is a RED box ( software & hardware) that i think the figure was 50k ( not sure what modules are included) ... now figure you would need a good 15-30k monitor = so i'm sure price will total above 50k ...
so is the cost /use ratio worth 50K+ to you ..
if YES - then email Luki for fine details ...
if it's not worth 50k then ??? either go to a post house that has it ...
use a different system ..
or get together with X number of Red owners and buy it or some other system ...

if you ask 10 persons how much does a RED cost ... you're going to get 10 different answers that range from 17,500 to 200k ... depends on your needs/wants and what equipment you currently own ...
 
Price policy

Price policy

donatello said:
if you ask 10 persons how much does a RED cost ... you're going to get 10 different answers that range from 17,500 to 200k ...
Click to expand...

The trouble is that REDUSER are used to have an open cost policy. A REDONE cost 17'500$ not more not less and independently where you live and who you are. You can make a quote by choosing your needs adding features or descarting accessories you don't want. But the price policy is always the same.

donatello said:
... depends on your needs/wants and what equipment you currently own ...
Click to expand...

If you own allready something that you want to implement on your workstation (if it is Scratch compliant) you will not ask them to quote it!!!!

The point of this thread is that reduser love RED price policy. Assimilate could also implement it on their web page as Scratch is a module based software (hardware configuration depends on systems/feature/needs).

But Assimilate wants a more personal approach wich obviously has also its limits.

It's their choice IMHO.

Patrick.
 
Trouble is, Assimilate is not Red... The co-work and co-exist and co-operate, but their business model seems very diferent. And to Assimilates credits - they've contributed highly to make Red "work".

I do find this post entertaining in that respect, though: :)

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=99428&postcount=8

Cheers!
Gunleik
 
I tell you why the price of Scratch is not public: because it can affect the sale of the RED.

If knowing in advance that the promised land of 4k for indie is not really for indie, it may not be good for sales.

I, for one, want to know how much it's REALLY going to cost me before I get my RED.

But I feel my hopes are going to be crushed.

If the cost of Scratch depends entirely by the package, then why not give a ballpark quote for renting? Just online and CC? Why not? It's even this possibility so outrageously expensive?

How many of you guys are going to spend over 20,000 on a camera that promises 4k, just to finish with the proxy because you won't be able to afford the online and CC?

Ah, the power of marketing.
 
Josh, what kind of projects are you working on? Are they film outs or HD finish? I think you're going to be okay. There are many solutions in the works, some very savvy people putting in time to develop tools that could help the smaller shops. Cameras just started ramping up in the past couple of months. Need to give everyone time to catch up. Scratch is a nice solution, but if it's out of the budget, there will be more solutions eventually that might fall in line with your budget.
 
" A REDONE cost 17'500$ not more not less"

for most that is not the cost to be able to USE it ...
each must add to teh body ... depending on your need/want you add to it and the price goes UP ....some will be happy spending 25k other 100k ...
 
stevesherrick said:
Josh, what kind of projects are you working on? Are they film outs or HD finish? I think you're going to be okay. There are many solutions in the works, some very savvy people putting in time to develop tools that could help the smaller shops. Cameras just started ramping up in the past couple of months. Need to give everyone time to catch up. Scratch is a nice solution, but if it's out of the budget, there will be more solutions eventually that might fall in line with your budget.
Click to expand...

Steve, if I had the budget for a filmout I would never shoot video, so, obviously it would have to be HD, for my feature.

My question is... how does it compare in quality with a genesis or viper?

I'm very new at this (digital world, not filmmaking), I'm just a director.

Somebody told me the red is like genesis quality at a price of DVCPROHD. Is that right?

I just need to know the bottom line, I'm not a tech.

And how does it compare pricewise from shooting to post with those cameras?

Onlining footage from those cameras seems the same price like onlining on Scratch, so would it be better to rent a genesis or buy a red?

It seems that knowing the price of post makes a difference and I'm really getting confused.
 
If you don't have unreasonable deadlines and the end result is let's say 1080P, then I'm of the opinion that you have some options right now and they won't cost you anything more than any typical HD editing system such as Final Cut Pro. The question you have to ask yourself is - Do you want to do all of the post work yourself or will you do the editing and then take the finishing elsewhere?

Red offers various ways of handling your footage through custom designed apps like Redcine and Red Alert (both free by the way). Thy are still in beta and have some kinks to be worked out, but you can export footage, do one light color corrections, etc and upon export end up with whatever format your system can support. But this requires time, lots of it for a feature. But they also offer editing via proxies that are generated with the R3D files and this can get you into FCP quickly to do your edits.

Ian Bloom has been working on RedTrip which opens up a pipeline between FCP and Redcine.

There are options. As a director, you need to look at what Red brings to the table in terms of quality, look, etc. If you are sold on that, then you need to look at the workflow and decide if it fits your situation. What editing system will you be cutting on, how much storage will you have, where will the online take place, what is the post production schedule, etc?

RED is a great thing, wonderful for the indy filmmaking world. But it may not be for everyone. Compared to Genesis, Viper, Cinealta they are all different, with advantages and disadvantages. But if you are looking to buy a camera, you'll find it hard to beat the price/value of the Red. But there are so many variables that come into play, that I can't explain them all in one post.

I will say this. RED is not a $17,500 camera. Most people know that going in, but perhaps people who are not necessarily techy types may not. This is a $25K plus investment if you are looking to shoot a feature. I would seriously look at speaking with a Red owner/operator and see if renting might be an option. They should be able to take a look at your situation and put together a plan for the entire workflow from shooting through post. Then you'll know what you are up against.
 
josh said:
I tell you why the price of Scratch is not public: because it can affect the sale of the RED.

If knowing in advance that the promised land of 4k for indie is not really for indie, it may not be good for sales.
Click to expand...

With all due respect, if you thought that 4K was in the reach of your average indie, you've not really got any idea about the realities of these things. Even many studio films never see a 4K DI.

If you're going to jump into something like this with the idea that the camera is the only factor then you're going to be sadly disappointed, just like early DV adopters were sad to discover they couldn't edit with their previously excellent Pentium.

donatello said:
" A REDONE cost 17'500$ not more not less"

for most that is not the cost to be able to USE it ...
each must add to teh body ... depending on your need/want you add to it and the price goes UP ....some will be happy spending 25k other 100k ...
Click to expand...

This is probably a part of the reason Assimilate doesn't advertise the price. It's not a simple as going in and buying a box of a shelf at BestBuy... Depending on your needs, you'd need to buy a number of modules, and extra hardware. There are very many options and iterations. Quoting a base price will just give people a false idea of what they will need to spend.

Also, it's not an uncommon practice at all for this type of software. I don't think I've ever seen the manufacturers advertise list prices for Lustre, or Pablo, or Baselight, or eQ, or Inferno. The pricing on these products doesn't lend itself to being put in a simple pricelist, it's normally a complex structure.
 
Sycophant said:
With all due respect, if you thought that 4K was in the reach of your average indie, you've not really got any idea about the realities of these things. Even many studio films never see a 4K DI.
Click to expand...
4K is fully in the reach of any indie.
Adobe Premiere handles 4K, with cineform even on a $$$$ computer.

If we are talking about -full- 4K, with display and i/o, ok, thats something different, but scratch doesnt do that - its 2K i/o and display.

Sycophant said:
It's not a simple as going in and buying a box of a shelf at BestBuy...
Depending on your needs, you'd need to buy a number of modules, and extra hardware. There are very many options and iterations. Quoting a base price will just give people a false idea of what they will need to spend.
Click to expand...
scratch will run on any modern pc for 5.000 usd, (luki even pointed out that he is runnning it under windows on an apple notebook pc)
you might want a Nvidia Graphics board, with the Quadro drivers for 1.000-8.000 usd.
disk storage at sustained 400 Mbytes/sek for 2K is on SATA starting at 1500 usd.
the human interfaces from 3hrd parties are an option, you dont need them but if you want them you can spend $$$$-$$$$$ depending on your wishes.

As most mid-level software only DI systems, Scratch is a software, but in this market space, where software houses sell only dozens to hundreds of copies, many try to sell the hardware and the software in order to maximize the revenue per customer.

Sycophant said:
Also, it's not an uncommon practice at all for this type of software. I don't think I've ever seen the manufacturers advertise list prices for Lustre, or Pablo, or Baselight, or eQ, or Inferno. The pricing on these products doesn't lend itself to being put in a simple pricelist, it's normally a complex structure.
Click to expand...
Its only a sales technique when you are selling to a small niche.

scratch or lustre are no different from adobe cs3 or apple fcs, and do the same things with less or more specialization.

once the competition is there, everyone discloses list prices. look at Avid, in former times, it was the same sales approach for Media Composer, once FC and Premiere begun winning over mayor parts of the markets, Avid Media Composer was -advertised- with 4.995$ - the last MC we used costed us >100.000 and also had no list price.

i am surprised that assimilate didnt take the opportunity to increase its market share by offering a $$$$ red specialized version. However i hope they reconsider, once red finally allows 3hrd parties to support the native redcode fileformat before most red camera owners buy alternatives elsewhere, as scratch is a nice software and i sure wish them the best for the future.
 
Props

Props

laguun said:
Snip

however, even as scratch is the only windows software allowed to support R3D until april - the assimilate sales and marketing approach isn´t the red "rebellion", its the opposite.

"dont tell" pricing and 30~50.000 for a windows software cd-rom are sure rather 1990´s business, which many people and corporations find pretty contrasting to reds

Blair, i think in this your attitude is a little out of line.

in my times at discreet logic in the mid 90ties, flames and infernos went for 0, 25.000 or 250.000 for the same product, depending on the customer and if the company really did want to have the (key) account.
Click to expand...

I never said I thought Assimilate's marketing plan was genius, just that it is their decision how they wish to run their business. My attitude may have been a bit stronger than necessary but when someone has been a part of the RedUser community in such a predominantly positive way for such a long time then I believe this particular user forum should respect his request.

Whether keeping pricing under wraps is good business, or asking the forum to keep secrets, passes muster as "in the spirit" of open information sharing is a valid question. Frankly, if it was not somebody like Lucas, or CVB, or the ET guys then I wouldn't go out of my way to ask the community to show some respect.

In any case, lagunn's post was a rational and courteous response so as far as I'm concerned we can agree to disagree.

Peace - Blair
 
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