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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Focusing on 720P. I need your help/Advice...

Stuart English said:
And we DO have a focus assist overlay waveform plus image magnify for the LCD / EVF / HD-SDI outputs.

What we offer is what we believe to be the best solution available at this time.
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Sounds like "not invented here" syndrome to me.

Stuart, I love you guys and I have an EVF on order (like a lot of people who have been waiting a really long time) but if you think that focus histogram is better than peaking or the the JVC/Sony style focus assist (which is available at this time) then I have to say I think you're really wrong.

Have you actually had anyone who's used those systems report that they wish the Sony had a histogram on it instead of their assist? I've never heard anything like that. I've only heard people blown away by how well it worked. If I'm downrezzing RED to 1080P (which I will be) it should be just as helpful. I'm prepared to accept the idea that it won't be as good at 4K as it would at 2K with deeper DOF. That may well be. But it might not. Won't know until we see it.

Everyone can sit around here and argue that w/o a "GREAT AC" then RED is unusable. Well there goes 5,000 camera sales down the drain - because there sure aren't 5,000 great ACs out there. And the one's that are out there are concentrated in a few cities.

The reality is a lot of work (even 35mm film work) is done by operators that pull their own focus.

In a digital world there's simply no way a tape measure is more accurate than 1:1 zoom viewing - because 1:1 is what it is. Next best might be focus assist or tape.

RED was never intended to convert 35 film guys only. It was squarely targeted at DVXuser.com when it was announced. I'm sure guys like Barry and Jarred remember that well.

Looking forward to seeing the peaking functionality. If you've got that I think all you need to do is change the peaking to a color and make the rest of the frame monochrome and you've got the Sony focus assist. I could be wrong... but that sure seems like how it works... edge detection of some sort.
 
I am an indie film maker that will be using the Red to shoot features. Production Scheduled for JULY '08. Unfortunately, I will need to both shoot and pull focus, at times, during some shoots. I will absolutely need to know that what I shoot is in focus as I shoot it. The shoots I am referring to will be guerilla style. I have ordered the EVF with my camera. Can anyone recommend the best solution (besides a great AC) based on current technology and Red 'constraints' that may help me achieve this.
 
joelnet said:
RED was never intended to convert 35 film guys only. It was squarely targeted at DVXuser.com when it was announced.
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I thought it was as well, which is why I was shocked at how challenging focusing for 4K really is.

Basically when focusing for any format, there is an accepted 'circle of confusion' where points smaller than a certain size cannot be resolved by the combination of the camera, post processes and final delivery - making them appear to be in focus. In motion picture production, for example, depth of field is affected by: the film grain, lens resolution, filtration, print or transfer limitations, negative generations and internegs, and projection. Each of these adds up to more leeway in what is perceived by the final viewer to be in focus.

With a Red One, you can view 4K images in a pixel-for-pixel relationship on a high resolution screen. All of those things that give you a 'fudge factor' for focus are gone! It's a sobering experience for an experienced focus puller, let me tell you! I understand that you need to judge focus based on the final output but Red 4K footage can make you rethink your career choices!
 
Mike and others. Yes, an AC should be used on projects that have the budget for them. I couldn't agree more. In fact, I'm looking for one in the Boston area if anyone knows of one.

But I also feel there needs to be good tools in place to pull your own focus. Over the next couple of weeks, I'll be trying to determine if the tools currently being offered by Red (Magic Focus assist, and 720P preview) are enough to make it happen. I too would like to see a 1080P output so I can check things on a 24" or larger screen when appropriate. I wish I had the EVF in time for this testing phase but it hasn't shipped yet.
 
I see what you mean if you don't have a EVF its harder for the operator to tell if the shot was soft and and in need of a second take.
 
Barry Green said:
In Build 14? The manual said it wasn't working yet. Is it only in the EVF, or am I nuts?
Click to expand...

To enable:
Video>Viewfinder>color>Edge highlight

Works great on my RED lcd.


I wonder why we have "Viewfinder" in the video menu and monitor in the "System" menu when they both affect the same output....
 
Evf resolution

Evf resolution

Cinema cameras have optical viewfinders. We need the focus precision that one can achieve with an optical viewfinder.
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Take this for what this is worth, but based on practical tests our EVF designer has performed v's optical viewfinders, a 1280 x 720p resolution viewfinder is already there.

Just saying.....
 
Edge Highlight

Edge Highlight

CrewPix.com said:
Yeah. You wouldn't want to use any sort of standard terminology. Wouldn't want the 'peaking' people to sue your butts.
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Well its called Edge Highlight mainly because thats what it does and it is not a traditional EVF "peaking" circuit. :whistling:
 
Hiding it under the Color checkbutton is also fun :-)

Stuart what's the reason for dividing the onscreen options into "Viewfinder" and "monitor" and putting one page behind the "Video" button and the other under "System"?
 
Menus

Menus

Stuart what's the reason for dividing the onscreen options into "Viewfinder" and "monitor" and putting one page behind the "Video" button and the other under "System"?
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The logic Anders is there are things that you want to change shot to shot, and things that you leave alone for the duration of a project.

The latter items are therefore grouped under the SYSTEMS menus, and the former items are grouped either under the SENSOR or VIDEO menus.
 
Mike Prevette said:
Hire an AC
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And how will the AC accurately pull focus when there are no witness marks on the lens? And when using Nikons?

Red was marketed towards owners and the Nikon option is obviously meant as a low cost option. A 1:1 pixel display can only help, it won't hurt anyone or anything. It is vital.

The magnified focus assist, by the way, is along the lines of the right idea but -- really, it's just not what's needed. Have you tried it in 2K mode? It magnifies the image by something like 10%. In fact, in 4K mode is when it magnifies the most, and even then it doesn't even show you as much as 2K mode WITHOUT magnification! Clearly there's plenty of room for improvement. A magnified window, in the corner of the screen, showing 1:1. How could anyone argue against that? It's a perfect solution.
 
Stuart English said:
Take this for what this is worth, but based on practical tests our EVF designer has performed v's optical viewfinders, a 1280 x 720p resolution viewfinder is already there.
Click to expand...
I do hope that's true, even if it would seem to be mathematically impossible. How can you display enough information to determine accurate focus when you're using 1/9th the frame? The room for error would seem to be substantial.

Perhaps in combination with a highly fine-tuned peaking circuit, so you're not relying solely on your eye. You cannot accurately focus solely by eye when you're seeing only 1/9 as much detail! But if you had a finely tuned peaking circuit in connection, it might be enough. I'd still like a magnified focus assist though. (proper magnification, 1:1 magnification).
 
I don't know too much about focus pulling. In fact, until a month ago I didn't know what it was. When I found out I couldn't believe in this day and age it takes two people to operate one camera. Sort of like two people operating one machine. May be it is needed.

Getting the entire shot in focus is a combination of things. Actors, camera moving according to a prearranged plan, focus puller working according to the plan, compensating when it deviates, to mention a few. Are we talking about 5:1 ratio here, on an average? Now, I am getting ready to be clobbered. What if the camera has auto focus. Can I finish the same shot with a 5:1 ratio.

Here is an idea. Instead of a traditional auto focus, an auto focus applying to a focus zone whose size is variable and whose location within the frame is selectable by the operator with a joystick. Considering what has been accomplished so far, it shouldn't be too hard for Jannard and gang. Just an idea guys, pardon me focus pullers.
 
Are you familiar with how autofocus systems [in, say, an SLR] actually work? It's not the sort of thing that can just be enabled with software. There's actually a second sensor in SLRs for focus.

And if you want autofocus today, you can do it. There are several systems that have a "cheater button" that essentially turns autofocus on [by matching lens focus distance to the detected subject distance]. The combination of the C-Motion LCS and a CineTape Measure is one of the least expensive ways to do it... at roughly $50,000.

The practicality of designing and implementing an autofocus system aside, its usefulness really is limited. Anything that is automatic removes control... and that's not something you want on a professional camera.

I can't think of the last time I personally lost a take to an AC who went soft.
 
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