List the 5 most important things you want from scarlet

[Mike Bozulich]

Hi, thank you, but Boz is not a weak mind at all. He is a hard bone! hehehe

Wow. You really are insulting. Again, I will take the high road and not stoop to your level with the insults, as tempting as it may be. One only resorts to name calling when one doesn't have a valid argument. So continue with the name calling. It only shows what a fool you are.

 

[Mike Bozulich]

Blah blah blah

I don't have the time or inclination to do another blow by blow response to your arguments. As you say, it's pointless. Needless to say, I think 2K is plenty, you want more. Fine. I think you will get a reality check soon enough.

To sum up:

• I've used 2K, 3K, and 4K professionally and know what it's like to work with these formats. You have not.
  
• My computer is not "old cheese". Unless you consider a dual quad-core Xeon system with 8GB RAM to be old. Once again you assumptions are wrong.
  
• My reasons for 2K have been stated multiple-times. To repeat again, since you seem to be a little slow: 2K means faster workflow, lower cost, and faster turnaround. Those reasons are every bit as valid as "it's too expensive for me".
  
• The apparently "outdated" 2K format has been used on:
  Superman Returns, Flyboys, La Maison du Bonheur, Click, Scary Movie 4, Déjà Vu, Apocalypto, Reign O’er Me, The Tiger’s Tail, Grind House, Lookout, Next, The Ferryman, Balls of Fury, Condemned, Slipstream, Asterix 3, Before the Devil Knows You’re Dead, His Majesty Minor, I Now Pronounce You Chuck and Larry, How About You, Superbad, I Know Who Killed Me, The Comebacks, 21, Le Deuxième Souffle, Tourist, Snow Buddies, Walk Hard, Addicted, Enfin Veuve, La Jeune Fille et les Loups, Get Smart, Taken, Disco, Christmas in Wonderland, The King of Kung Fu, The Heavy, Finder T.A.T.U, The Rocker and The Other Boleyn Girl.... Oh did I mention that's only for the Panavision Genesis? Imagine if I included the Sony CineAlta and Thompson Viper!

Now go insult Killfilm, Scott Anderson, Tinkelton, and Zurfus just to name a few who have recently posted agreeing with my point. I'm not the only one with this thought. Sorry if it bursts your dream. Get over it.

I must admit I quite enjoyed fighting with you, dear hard bone.
have a nice wednesday.

You too, jackhole.

(Sorry to the rest of the group for having to put up with this)

 

[Mike Bozulich]

Hopefully there wont be a line for scarlet, that would really suck

I think there will be a line at first, due to the ol' supply and demand problem. But Jim has stated that they expect to sell a lot more of the Scarlet systems than the 'One', so that means more of a mass-production situation. NAB can't get here soon enough!

 

[Fergus Anderson]

The Lord of the Rings films also used a 2k intermediate (sadly)

 

[Aiden Cornwell]

I don't have the time or inclination to do another blow by blow response to your arguments. As you say, it's pointless. Needless to say, I think 2K is plenty, you want more. Fine. I think you will get a reality check soon enough.

To sum up:

• I've used 2K, 3K, and 4K professionally and know what it's like to work with these formats. You have not.
  
• My computer is not "old cheese". Unless you consider a dual quad-core Xeon system with 8GB RAM to be old. Once again you assumptions are wrong.
  
• My reasons for 2K have been stated multiple-times. To repeat again, since you seem to be a little slow: 2K means faster workflow, lower cost, and faster turnaround. Those reasons are every bit as valid as "it's too expensive for me".
  
• The apparently "outdated" 2K format has been used on:
  Superman Returns, Flyboys, La Maison du Bonheur, Click, Scary Movie 4, Déjà Vu, Apocalypto, Reign O’er Me, The Tiger’s Tail, Grind House, Lookout, Next, The Ferryman, Balls of Fury, Condemned, Slipstream, Asterix 3, Before the Devil Knows You’re Dead, His Majesty Minor, I Now Pronounce You Chuck and Larry, How About You, Superbad, I Know Who Killed Me, The Comebacks, 21, Le Deuxième Souffle, Tourist, Snow Buddies, Walk Hard, Addicted, Enfin Veuve, La Jeune Fille et les Loups, Get Smart, Taken, Disco, Christmas in Wonderland, The King of Kung Fu, The Heavy, Finder T.A.T.U, The Rocker and The Other Boleyn Girl.... Oh did I mention that's only for the Panavision Genesis? Imagine if I included the Sony CineAlta and Thompson Viper!

Now go insult Killfilm, Scott Anderson, Tinkelton, and Zurfus just to name a few who have recently posted agreeing with my point. I'm not the only one with this thought. Sorry if it bursts your dream. Get over it.



You too, jackhole.

(Sorry to the rest of the group for having to put up with this)

Well said I completely agree with this. 4k is a great option for larger budget projects in some cases but it comes down to the fact that 2k for 90% of people is what they need and can use. Give me 2k redraw and I will be more then happy

 

[MistahTibbs]

I've been lurking here for quite a while and, overall, I'm thinking that Scarlet will be, as others have noted, 2K, RAW/RedCodec (whatever), and a fixed lens. A GOOD fixed lens to keep with the "pocket" designation. Hopefully a nice fast, big zoomy, spread cheeky* sort of lens

I plan to dive into HD from my 100b cams sometime next spring and was excited by the Panny 150 coming out this fall but if Scarlet prices around $5,000 I'd have to give some serious rethinking to what I would get to replace my DVXs.

If I may add my suggestion to the list of important things... availability of a leasing plan for the cams for tax purposes. Yeah, it's not a technical aspect but to a lot of people it's still important.

The future is an exciting place. April can't come soon enough.

MT

*with apologies to Terry Gilliam.

 

[Alberto Caprioglio]

do you realize that you are not talking against an evantual 4k Scarlet, but instead you are just against 4k anything... 4k shooting, and 4k workflow.
So, following all your statements against working with 4k, Red One (oh yes, I am talking about Red One now) would be a complete failure?

Wow. You really are insulting.

Really, was that an insult?
is my knowledge of english so bad? I did not believe "hard bone" was so devastating. Actually in italian it is possibily a compliment, we would say someone like Bruce Willis or Rambo is a hard bone ("osso duro". It means hard, strong, impossible to defeat. If I believed that was an insult I would not say it. I didn't know it sounds so bad in english. Sorry!).
Anyway, come on, stay on the discussion path. since it has became a 4k vs 2k discussion, well, I don't want/need to fight. If you go to red.com homepage...that's all: 4k. It's beautiful! Terrific image improvement!

One only resorts to name calling when one doesn't have a valid argument.

Why you say that? you can't deny all that I was technical and focused on the subject. I basically was talking 99% technical/aesthetical and 1% ironic, not against you of course, who I do not know, but against your argument against 4k. (oh come on, how could my innocence be not clear?.. Okay.. okay.. okay, before you replay, I'm sorry, all right. My God.
oops, sorry again.
Now I have the impression that you were tryng to hijack the discussion to personal.
it's just my very little impression. ooops, sorry again for my fellings..
Really, let me tell you that because you are THE master of workflow, it doesn't imply that your shooting decisions and solutions have anything special or be the best for imaging sake. By the way - no pun intended, but sorry anyway, I'd forever say sorry in advance when I talk to you - besides editing films on a cosmic quadricomputer, are you also a cameraman?
I am. Sorry, but so I am a hard bone too about this.
Usually cameraman tend to be a bit idealistic, perhaps. Sure they would appreciate image quality only secondly to content quality and for no other reason they would have half good images, being it computer speed, lazyness, or anything.
Yes, to me resolution is important, because it is better at the eyes, for the mind, and because resolution is part of fedelity. images are more true, more lifelike and interesting and anjoyable to look at.

It only shows what a fool you are.

thank you.
hehe
no problem at all here if you say (only) that. It simply can't hurt because it doesn't mean much.
if some one would upset because some one else say "you are a fool", how many wars would we have instead of just the good old 2 or 3?
okay, you think I am fool. So, is this a valid argument aginst 4k? no! but it is a funny argument nonetheless. It may not be about video, but rather about general knowledge, and this is good. ladies and gentleman, I am a fool whose dreams are in 4k format.

Now go insult Killfilm, Scott Anderson, Tinkelton, and Zurfus just to name a few who have recently posted agreeing with my point. I'm not the only one with this thought. Sorry if it bursts your dream. Get over it.

1)
hey, be sure I won't take more than 1 microsecond to recover from this terrible 'defeat'.

2)
I don't insult anyone and don't want too.
What are you saying? Boz, I have not read the posts you talk about, and have nothing against those who want to shoot 2k - still is it not clear?? - just let me complain for having my wish ruined by those who seem to do their best in order to make Scarlet not be delivered with 4k capability.
Any one is able to say that if someone has done a thing in a way, that way must be enough, it is a very easy position. But that statement is not necessarily true.
You can read a lot of peole who intend to shoot 2k with their Red One (for the moment, at least), thay have their reasons of course (maybe the have 16mm lens sets, or because of the lighter workflow. Nonetheless, they love the fact that they can shoot 4k in the future with that camera, and have absolutely nothing against those who use the full potential.
"get over it?" You, get over it; should I start to think such a thing: that me shooting 4k makes someone unhappy? It seems so.
I can't believe this. But... strangely, I must "get over it".
yes, yes...

for the last time:
I have nothing against people who want to shoot 2k. what I don't like is 2k warriors making my wishlist (and other's own) disappear into a flood of 2k desperate requests. It seems that if Scarlet would be 4k, we should all be sorry. It's so strange. I don't want my legittimate request for 4k look desperate. If i see a clear proof that there will never be a 4k Scarlet, I'd just stop asking for it.
Also, what's the problem with computer in 2 or 3 years if a camera could shoot 4k now? I repeat: computer is too slow at the moment? just USE A SMALLER AREA OF THE SENSOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOR and leave us alone.
Otherwise, just say it's a cost problem; and cost, in relation to computers, goes down all the time. But we know nothing about mysterium cost and electronics cost in this development, so why just argue against some one who wish to shoot 4k?
This is a wish list, and Red time is reading what we write, they need to know what we need. I am afraid that all this asking for 2k will make them think that this road is better. while a lot of people who wish to shoot 4k may know even know this thread, or may just not write.
And even if a majority of people prefer a medium egg now then a super chiken tomorrow, I am not sure at all that this would be sufficient an excuse to not let the minority shoot 4k. Because you can shoot 2k with a 4k sensor; you can't shoot 4k with a 2k sensor.
This is why all this 2k parade may even get on may nerves one day. you may be a market driving factor that can make shooting 4k impossible to those who really want or need it, just because you don't need.
isn it selfish?

I would never say that you MUST shoot 4k. Who am I to impose this to you?
You are going to IMPOSE others not to shoot 4k with all this saying that 4k is not necessary.
IF Scarlet will be made 2k, anyone who wanted 4k will know who he may have to thank.

Thank you, 2k partisans, for putting 4k down.
AM i becoming sarcastic now? you bet.



You too, jackhole.

ehmm, This is what i call technical discussion.
I don't even know what it means in english, but It doesn't sound good.

(Sorry to the rest of the group for having to put up with this)

oh yes, this is the sorry circus. Great. the tie is important, but even more important, when 10 go against 1, is to mantain support from the vast public.
bah. not for me, I'd rather make a contest withount any sort of sudditance and fake cortesy to the vast public. I don't go the public for support. It is you who hijack the 2k vs 4k Scarlet first into 2k vs 4k genrally, and then 2k vs 4k into something else.
like, a naked contest, JUST FOR EXAMPLE: 4k against 2k, the pros and the odds. difficult answer, uh? with no tie in the middle.

you said you have no time for this discussion, but you are still here "discussing". for the lower instincts, some have always time.
what a great demonstration in favor of not wanting 4k... I'm impressed.

I

've used (...), you have not

You know what i have done and what i haven't done? are you my brother?

I have made enlargements 2 metres high, you have not. (I am your brother)
I have been at first seats at cinema and from there the image was quite poor. have you?

you seem to be a little slow

thank you!

2K means faster workflow, lower cost, and faster turnaround.

Oh, you want to earn more. That's the most technical and aesthetic reason of all. I have no problem with that.

Those reasons are every bit as valid as "it's too expensive for me".

Yes, I agree, they are as valid, but not the same thing. If you have a little budget, you are forced to some decision. But if you want to work less and earn more, is something just a little bit different than being forced by bigger forces. But still a very valid reason to shoot 2k.
Not to impose 2k to everyone by putting down those voices who ask a different thing, though.

The apparently "outdated" 2K format has been used on: (...)

yes, but this has nothing to do with some elses wishes.
Why should every cameraman on the planet copy those? I am not even interested in most of those titles. Scary Movie 4... bah, so what?
Dune, Hamlet, Lawrence of sorrybia were filmed in 65mm if I don't recall badly. so what? that format is even more outdated, but it doesn't matter, because it is excellent and if they used your brain they would have choseen somthing more comfortable as a workflow, thanks not.. 4k can replace 35mm, is probably better, and may also compare to 65mm, resolution wise. Regarless the various new Star Wars, Scary movie, and your time consuming workflow.

The Lord of the Rings films also used a 2k intermediate (sadly)

that's right: "sadly"
At least, they say scanning film at 4k doesn't get much more information from it, and a lot of noise. But without film, there is a lot of difference between 4k and 2k.

Let's see if for Peter Jackson and others 3000 happy Red One users 2k is enough for shooting. Just wait if it is enough.
By the way, did you consider resizing 4k to 2k before editing, to have an optimized 2k and at the same time make the workflow fast?

(of course I did not feel offended by some of your tones, I just played, and wanted to behave the same as you)

have a nice Wednesday, old pineapple

 

[Andrew Hewlett]

Wow...now I know why I don't travel to this section much anymore.

 

[Alberto Caprioglio]

don't tell me. I am loosing interest in scarlet.
Since they - the louder lions - don't want it to be 4K capable, it is unlikely that Red will make it so, (the song ding dong is "yeah, that would be great, but no thanks").
I hope nothing will force me to write more here and answer.

I'd like 4K upgradable, 4k possibile.
at least 3k.
please, more than 2k. I already have canon A1 for that 1080.
fixed zoom lens is fine.
the fastest notebooks don't melt. Why should a compact camera. Mysterium is there. no one is forced to use full potential and not now.
byebye

 

[Mike Bozulich]

Sorry, Tetsuo, I'm not going to play the endless debate game. I get it. You really want 4K. I have nothing against 4K, I just don't think it's practical for the Scarlet. Time will tell.

Honestly, if you want 4K that bad (and are willing to pay more as you said) then just get a Red One. It's available now.

Tinkelton: Yeah, I hear the Red One also gets very hot when shooting 4K. So I don't know how well that would scale down to Scarlet anyway. All signs pretty much point to 2K, but with Red anything is possible. As I've tried to make clear in these posts, I would be plenty happy with 2K.

0059099: Indeed it is all personal wish-list stuff at this point. That's why I was surprised when Tetsuo decided to jump all over me for stating a preference for 2K. Of course one must defend oneself, but I'm sorry it got as out of hand as it did.

 

[killfilm]

hey guys, no problem at all. Remember we're here for one reason - scarlet.

Why would anyone listen to our requests if we're arguing with one another, i believe the more feedback and wishlist we have for Jim, then he may consider some if not all the features. Right Jim?

....pretending to be Jim

Right

 

[ColinSmith]

Popping in for a look now and again here, are we dividing into 2 groups that are not so different on what we want, but more on the way that's expressed?

One group is saying, give me s16, 2k raw, "small" camera at least, anything more you can add I'll be delighted to take it.

The other is saying, 4k all the way, s35 DoF, smaller, lighter, faster, cheaper..... but if it's not all that I'll deal with it.

The camera (if it is anything like 90% of us expect, this is Red, who knows) will likely be somewhere in the middle, and from what small hints have been given I guess 90% of people will end up with something that they want to buy.

We are all shot cutting the "image quality" requirements with our own preferred numbers, but in the end it will be like the Red One, that first few screen grabs will sell it, and if it is s16 or s35 or $2000 or $8000 I am pretty sure they will be worth it.

 

[killfilm]

Colin, you're exactly right. Humans always want more, so why not 4k.
Back to topic of this thread "5 most important things"

Dont forget Audio which is half the story

-HDV audio sucks bad, so does the long GOP but thats a different discussion
-Look at panny's cameras, 16bit/48khz uncompressed

Scarlet should excel in this field too, 24bit audio will beautify her more.

Jim please, 24bit, for us who dont have a sound person ALL the time.

 

[Alberto Caprioglio]

Honestly, if you want 4K that bad (and are willing to pay more as you said) then just get a Red One. It's available now.

Actually, we ordered four. perhaps, too many. A smaller one with roughly same big picture would cover many more photographic situations.

Boz, please excuse me passionate tone. I perfectly understand your needs. I'm sure you also understand my fear that some requests in the wish list could have too a limiting influence on Red Center, on some aspects.

About heat, we may consider that all laptop computers heat since always.
Ten years ago laptops heat, the same as know. There was a dramatic improvement in performance nonetheless! because of smaller silicon structures in the CPUs and several other technical improvement overall.
inside an all metal case, fans, copper pipes, or other ingenious solutions make very available and very effective cheap cooling systems. Then, if they are still not enough there are always sub-zero gas systems, just like overclock fanatcs have in their computers to play the fastest videogames at maximum frame rates and resolutions and detail levels.

It's the job of boards manufacturers and chip manufacturers to make electronics smaller and smaller and almost double as powerful avery eyer.
Let's say (but we don't now) that Scarlet is going to be 1/4 the size of Red One - Red One already is not big, for being one of the most poweful cameras on the planet if not THE - ... considering than Scarlet is a newer design, and that it's design gains the engineering experience had with Red One.. well, I might be done.
It would just be another miracle.
I don't think it would be an impossible camera to make.

Scarlet should excel in this field too, 24bit audio will beautify her more.

I agree, and I am not too worried, since 24 bit is standard in professional audio. I don't care if it's not 24/192 or 24/96. 24bit at 48Hz can still be considered a professional standard. Since audio on a camera is very important and handy, but an external audio recorder is preferred, I think the camera's audio would not be used all the time, opposite of video. So, I would priority on great video than great audio.
I think it will be all right... simple, just 2 channels, not sofisticated, but good.

 

[killfilm]

yes, 24bit/48khz is plenty.

 

[Alberto Caprioglio]

I'll quit this thread for indefinite time, because our Red One #553 had arrived at the Custom! we are going to make a video-party (strictly HI8)
Salut

 

[JustinC]

SD card recorder only. 2 mini XLR inputs, (no sound would be suicide). Head phone jack out. A single mini HDSDI out. A fixed zoom lens. I suspect that this camera will feature many of the automatic focus and iris settings that other small cameras have, as it would seem strange to make a camera too much cheaper that still requires such a feature film style crew to make the most of it. To combat this I suspect a built in LCD (hopefully touch screen) with menu functions as well as lens control features. I imagine that the SCARLET will continue the theme of using software upgrades and therefore software control for much of the camera and consequently shy away from on body buttons to control the lens etc.

 

[Harry Lime]

- S16 size sensor
- Spinning mirror
- Interchangeable lens mount.
- RAW with 16bit color
- Minimum of 2k. 3k or 4k would be nice.

 

[Mike Bozulich]

- S16 size sensor
- Spinning mirror
- Interchangeable lens mount.
- RAW with 16bit color
- Minimum of 2k. 3k or 4k would be nice.

Hey Harry, I'm curious why you're request involves a spinning mirror. I see the reason for it on a film camera with an optical viewfinder, but does it make sense on a video camera?

Otherwise I'm right with you on the requests.

Since I've never posted my 5, here they are...

1. 1/2" sensor or larger (preferrably full 35mm size)
2. Interchangeable lenses
3. 16-bit RAW
4. 2K (or better)
5. Modular design (like red).

Of these I see the sensor size, bit depth, and resolution being a reality.

 

[Mike Bozulich]

2 mini XLR inputs, (no sound would be suicide).

Forgive my ignorance on the subject, but does the Red One have any sound capability? If not, then I would definitely add sound as a request for the Scarlet!

A fixed zoom lens. I suspect that this camera will feature many of the automatic focus and iris settings that other small cameras have, as it would seem strange to make a camera too much cheaper that still requires such a feature film style crew to make the most of it.

Yeah, this totally makes sense. As much as interchangeable lenses would be nice, I think a fixed zoom lens is most likely. However, if it's a kick ass lens with mechanical focus capability (think EX-1) then I'll be happy.