Scratch Rednode

[Siva Kollipara]

To me a camera shouldn't be released until it has it's "development" worked out.

Yes, I fully support you A51Films, The camera should NOT be released for you, until it's development worked out.
If you have already placed an order, let me know, I can recommend Jim, refund your money fully back.

I'd rather wait an extra 6 months and have them work with these companies themselves and not have it in the hands of consumers, until there is pratical workflow for the entire industry (Avid, Apple, Autodesk, Assimilate, ect.).

Yes,we waited several years,thinking that all companies would integrate each other and form a one format that anyone can use it. We shouldn't mind waiting another 60 years, RED should not deliver their products it to consumers until ALL the issues among these companies are resolved.
Dear A51Films, unfortunately many(initial) users on this forum are not consumers, they are professionals and somehow they know what they are doing and most surprising thing is they kept giving feedback/suggestions from the begining instead of complaining.

Products should be brought out of a development stage before they reach the hands of anyone. Before this camera came out, the entire firmware should have be useable and there should have been development going on with each major company in the post-production world.

This is the biggest mistake RED has made, RED should have consulted all these companies and shared their sensor/redcode/dsp /marketing plan details with them and should have asked for permission, if they can develop such product or not.

If you continue development after a products release, then you might have to recall products and replace them with newer hardware (which has indeed happened with 1-100, right?).

I kept telling Jim that he should brand the released cameras as production units, when they don't work properly, he should offer them "The all new improved RED-ONE B" at 10% discount price.

If they had not released the camera and only had a copuple cameras used for the development, then they wouldn't have to replace a 100 cameras at the companies cost.

Many enterpreneurs like you and me from our sofas at home, kept advising Jim how to run the business, how to behave like an "executive", bad-ass not learning lessons, very silly still behaving like a "bloody customer".

If it's not entirely useable, out of the box, when it goes out into the real world, why should it be used at all? That's the question I asked myself, and the answer is, it shouldn't. That's why I'm going with the Dalsa Origin and Evolution for my next feature.

Yes, I second you on this. we should not use such cheap cameras for such great feature, we should remain as the only FEW people, who shot on Dalsa Origin. How can award winning directors as well as little/cheap indy filmmakers produce 4k images, edited on home computer..? that's simply impossible. If someone tells, don't believe "it's a scam".

 

[Jarred Land]

Play nice kids... and dont forget to tie up your shoes, the Short Yellow Bus is coming by to pick some of you up.

 

[M Most]

Sure, but lets say 1% of the customers who ordered a red have a scratch system. For the remaining 99% its 50.000 to get native 4K from their native 4K camera, or to transcode.

No, it's free, by using either Red Alert or Redcine to do the exports.

One can live with the transcode, to be precise, for high-end work its indeed the route to go, but its not wise to lock out players as avid or adobe.

Red has said again and again that they intend to open up to other vendors in the future. You keep going on and on about how they're not doing that, but your real problem is that you don't happen to like their timetable. As I recall, DVCProHD was native in Final Cut only for quite some time, and Cineform didn't have a Mac product until very recently. All companies choose their strategic path and partners, and when they're ready, they open up to others. Red, as far as I'm concerned, is still basically in beta release, at least today. That could change next month or next spring, and when it does, it does. Ultimately there will be direct support integrated into the products you mention. When is dependent upon Red's timetable, not yours, mine, or anyone else's. But they've already made their statements of intent. You can either believe them or not, but to keep harping on this when they've already answered it is a bit silly. And it's not going to change their timetable.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Sure, but lets say 1% of the customers who ordered a red have a scratch system. For the remaining 99% its 50.000 to get native 4K from their native 4K camera, or to transcode.

REDCINE is free, and it transcodes just fine. You don't have to buy SCRATCH.

i have to tell them the bad news that indeed they can´t work on their avid or generate an edl for the discreet inferno.

A few days ago, Mike Most posted publicly onto a SCRATCH forum a step-by-step method of how to get proper MXF files into an Avid that can then generate an EDL for whatever system you want using only Red Portal and MetaCheater. No REDCINE, No RED Alert, No SCRATCH. Just free tools and an Avid. I'll let him repost it here if he wants.

If you're telling people this, then a) it's just wrong, and b) you're doing the RED community a tremendous disservice.

Lucas
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ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Laguun,

This is the second round of you going on a disinformation posting spree. I have a serious request for you. Can you please, please, please, rent or borrow a RED One and familiarize yourself with the tools and workflow options? Please?

 

[Casey Green]

Hi all,

http://www.red.com/support

Just wanted to let everyone know that the officially released REDNODE for SCRATCH that allows for native R3D work is now on the RED site.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

Thanks Lucas, very exciting.

Great meeting you at LART - keep on rockin'!

 

[laguun]

REDCINE is free, and it transcodes just fine. You don't have to buy SCRATCH.

yes.
however its missing the edl (or at least pull) functionality necessary to do an off/on-line & conform after the edit and therefore redusers can´t easily conform their edits.

A few days ago, Mike Most posted publicly onto a SCRATCH forum a step-by-step method of how to get proper MXF files into an Avid that can then generate an EDL for whatever system you want using only Red Portal and MetaCheater. No REDCINE, No RED Alert, No SCRATCH. Just free tools and an Avid. I'll let him repost it here if he wants.

There are several ways to generate EDLs, also with avid. Thats not the problem.

Maybe it should also be mentioned that the Avid workflow is OSX only, no Win and, more important, no DS Nitris (which could do 4k and is the "default" conforming system of most avid-basing houses).

The problem is - there is no way to -output- the 4k uncompressed via batch from there on with the red software.

Speedgrade btw also reads the R3D QT wrappers on OSX.

If you're telling people this, then a) it's just wrong, and b) you're doing the RED community a tremendous disservice.

Aha. Interesting. Thats actually the first time ever, someone tells me that i am not promoting red.

However i think that with 14.000 or so views on another thread of mine covering minefields in the postproduction (Color/Final Touch - lots of heavy bugs and issues), some folks in the "RED community" might have a different opinion.

Back to topic.
So lets see, after the output of the EDL. From there, the problem starts:
As of now, to feed the
smoke/flame/lustre/pronto/clipster/baselight/xpri/speedgrade/filmmaster/pablo/Avid DS etc..
with a 4k sequence, there is no way than to manually type in the EDL RA/RC, basically shot by shot.

Besides human error, reds variable framerates which is one of the extremely sought-after feature of the camera, and the necessary audio match back, this is a highly problematic way of using the red and raises eyebrowns not only with skeptical and conservative producers.

Its extremely slow, error prone and clumsy.

A simple copy for the soundsync is getting a real task.

Furthermore, with >95% of the D.I. services being non-scratch here in Germany, it is slowing down reds momentum pretty much.

Redcine needs a basic edl conform and the codec must be accessible to 3hrd parties on both platforms, in order to allow customers of red to use the best of the camera and have a streamlined postproduction workflow. And most importnat: Not only for themselves, but also for external postproduction facilities.

Once the mk1.5 camera is shipping which is clearly the most important task, there is no way around this fact. In order to make red -the- popular digital camera and #1 logical choice for cinematic production it perfectly makes sense to integrate the existing (often multi-million) production facilities, not to exclude them.

The studios don´t need platform-specific workarounds, they need ways to easily integrate the red to integrate footage shot on red into their existing systems and workflows as easy as they are used to do so via 35mm or hdcam.

And between money-doesn´t-matter and enthusiastic owners is the huge mayority of postproduction, and they need to be convinced. Not me. I have my 3 orders and would pay a premium to get even earlier delivery (instead of renting them out myself).

 

[M Most]

Maybe it should also be mentioned that the Avid workflow is OSX only, no Win and, more important, no DS Nitris (which could do 4k and is the "default" conforming system of most avid-basing houses).

Only for the conversion and creation of the MXF files. Once the files are made, you can copy them and the bin(s) to any Avid system on either platform.

The studios don´t need platform-specific workarounds, they need ways to easily integrate the red to integrate footage shot on red into their existing systems and workflows as easy as they are used to do so via 35mm or hdcam.

Correct. Which is one of the reasons you're not seeing studio pictures being shot on Red - the system and its support are too immature at this point. But then again, I don't know of any file based product that emerged with immediate support for every platform and editing system known to man from day 1. Red is in its first few months of existence as an available product - and still an incomplete product at that. You're suggesting that its support level should be equal to that of a product that's been around for years. That's not possible and it's not currently the case. Patience is a virtue. Learn the value of it.

 

[laguun]

Laguun,

This is the second round of you going on a disinformation posting spree. I have a serious request for you. Can you please, please, please, rent or borrow a RED One and familiarize yourself with the tools and workflow options? Please?

I think i and employees became pretty familar with the workflow option in the recent 2 months, since we were participating in a combined effort which became the 1st time red shot in germany at all. The AC of that particular shot, the rental house and the producers are reading this forum and posting here as well.

We used RA since then and redcine beta is processing here since the 1st day it became available.

The testshots and workflows were evaluated and used among others, at Geyer (discreet lustre), Bavaria (nucoda filmmaster), non disclosed (scratch), with speedgrade here.

I pointed out that RC doesn´t have EDL support and it would be pretty helpful , the fact that red at this moment isn´t opening up its code to 3hrd parties is also wellknown (and stated by jim), and that there is no QT wrapper on windows is also solid information. The fact that nvidia is recommended for windows and ati for osx, is information by red -and also tested here.
Where do you see "disinformation"?

 

[laguun]

Correct. Which is one of the reasons you're not seeing studio pictures being shot on Red - the system and its support are too immature at this point.

Thats the problem, our actual production (vierundzwanzig, featuring michael ballhaus and berhard eichinger among others) and another solid financed full feature who wanted to ~30 days shoot on red now are back to hdcam and 35mm, even as we had (after long negotiations) red cameras available.

But then again, I don't know of any file based product that emerged with immediate support for every platform and editing system known to man from day 1.

Fully agreed, and if you look at ikegamis editcam hd and its teething problems, red seems like a cakewalk.
However, its important to know the direction the R&D is taking. And if you look at the japanese manufacturers, they realized how benefitial if not necessary an open support for 3hrd party postproduction is.

Red is in its first few months of existence as an available product - and still an incomplete product at that. You're suggesting that its support level should be equal to that of a product that's been around for years. That's not possible and it's not currently the case.

To be honest: i am really impressed how far red has come in the amount of time. Its impressive. Also, i think that their open development strategy is a great advance and pretty bold.

However, the problem is that we get tons of phonecalls from people who clearly misunderstand what they can do with the camera as of now, and, more important, that they can´t use FCP to finish their 4K project (mainly low budgets) or can simply use an Avid an then have a basic conform in redcine (higher budgets).

Patience is a virtue. Learn the value of it.

Oh, i would love if red would have pushed delivery back some months back in September. The way it is now it it did reduce my planned 3 week end-of-year holiday.

And to make that clear, once and for all: RED is an awesome product. And scratch, i pointed that out in several threads, is a fine product. The problem is that besides the insiders most interested customers have over heightened expectations regarding the red workflow. And red needs not cheerleaders alone, they need also the critical feedback of what is happening "in the field" in order to evaluate their goals (once the task of manufacturing is solved).

 

[Lucas Wilson]

yes.
however its missing the edl (or at least pull) functionality necessary to do an off/on-line & conform after the edit and therefore redusers can´t easily conform their edits. ... There are several ways to generate EDLs, also with avid. Thats not the problem.

I was addressing your point from an earlier thread that said, "I have to tell them the bad news that indeed they can't work on their Avid or generate an EDL for the Discreet Inferno." And yes, they can.

The workflow in this case would be:

1) Use Mike's workflow to generate MXF files that contain the proper timecode from the R3D files.

2) Export EDL

3) Render DPX from REDCINE with proper timecode in headers.

4) Import EDL to Inferno for conform. Why you're conforming a longform timeline for online in an Inferno instead of Smoke or Fire is a little odd, but if that's what you have access to...

Step 3 right now is manual. And yes - that's a pain in the a**. RED has said many many many times that a pull-list functionality is coming. And it is. But it is not a trivial task, and requires cooperation from several different parties.

The latest build of REDCINE - which is currently being tested - has XML save/load capability. It is coming. Just because it isn't there today doesn't mean it will never be there.

and, more important, no DS Nitris (which could do 4k and is the "default" conforming system of most avid-basing houses).

Spoken like someone who has never tried to work in 4K on a DS Nitris.
Laguun, I worked for Avid for several years as a DS Nitris specialist and was a DS Online Editor in LA at several facilities. Please feel free to ask any DS Nitris artists you know - it's not easy or fun to do 4K datacentric workflow on DS. It's not what it was built for, no matter how Avid tries to position it.

The problem is - there is no way to -output- the 4k uncompressed via batch from there on with the red software.

Yes, there is. REDCINE can do batch output right now. Load 100 R3D clips into REDCINE, and it can output 100 different file sequences into 100 different folders.

There is no way currently to import a batch *list* into REDCINE and do any kind of automatic conform, but that is different than the ability to do uncompressed batch output... which REDCINE can do. Today.

The studios don´t need platform-specific workarounds, they need ways to easily integrate the red to integrate footage shot on red into their existing systems and workflows as easy as they are used to do so via 35mm or hdcam.

I know that 20th Century Fox is very successfully integrating Avid and daVinci Resolve with REDCINE for major feature post-production. Instead of complaining about how it wasn't possible, they just went ahead and figured it out and did it. And they have a working R3D pipeline. As do most of the major post-production facilities in LA now.

Most post facilities that I know don't have an axe to grind for or against platforms. They just figure out what they need to do and do it. Complaining that Box X doesn't do what you want it to do doesn't help you when your competition is getting the jobs you're losing.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[laguun]

I was addressing your point from an earlier thread that said, "I have to tell them the bad news that indeed they can't work on their Avid or generate an EDL for the Discreet Inferno." And yes, they can.

The workflow in this case would be:

1) Use Mike's workflow to generate MXF files that contain the proper timecode from the R3D files.

2) Export EDL

3) Render DPX from REDCINE with proper timecode in headers.

4) Import EDL to Inferno for conform. Why you're conforming a longform timeline for online in an Inferno instead of Smoke or Fire is a little odd, but if that's what you have access to...

Step 3 right now is manual. And yes - that's a pain in the a**. RED has said many many many times that a pull-list functionality is coming. And it is. But it is not a trivial task, and requires cooperation from several different parties.

Its not us using inferno for online (it is indeed an pretty odd choice for longform), but 2 of the largest/influential posthouses here - they are typical involved with $$$.$$$ or $.$$$.$$$ production partner.
And they are focusing on step 3, which is sadly & exactly what we have to confirm.

Spoken like someone who has never tried to work in 4K on a DS Nitris.
Laguun, I worked for Avid for several years as a DS Nitris specialist and was a DS Online Editor in LA at several facilities. Please feel free to ask any DS Nitris artists you know - it's not easy or fun to do 4K datacentric workflow on DS. It's not what it was built for, no matter how Avid tries to position it.

Luki, a wonder - we fully agree.
Didn´t happen to often in recent times.
These facilities, who intend to do their 4k inhouse on their ds, however represent a huge part of the market for red here in germany: car long-form promo & commercials especially. As rental partner, i can only warn them, but its thin ice. And they have glorious budgets, as for lamborghini, bugatti, porsche, bentley, rolls (all german owned brands meanwhile).

Yes, there is. REDCINE can do batch output right now. Load 100 R3D clips into REDCINE, and it can output 100 different file sequences into 100 different folders.

There is no way currently to import a batch *list* into REDCINE and do any kind of automatic conform, but that is different than the ability to do uncompressed batch output... which REDCINE can do. Today.

I was referring to batch list. If red integrates a simple command line it would be no problem to have an external programmer to do programm the missing functionality.

I know that 20th Century Fox is very successfully integrating Avid and daVinci Resolve with REDCINE for major feature post-production. Instead of complaining about how it wasn't possible, they just went ahead and figured it out and did it. And they have a working R3D pipeline. As do most of the major post-production facilities in LA now.

Our R3D workflow & pipeline is also in place and working fine, 2K and 4K. Its uncompressed and easily transferable. We also already added a dozen of Terras to the san. However the problems arise once external boutiques or studios join the game, and thats the typical situation in rental & co-production.

Most post facilities that I know don't have an axe to grind for or against platforms. They just figure out what they need to do and do it. Complaining that Box X doesn't do what you want it to do doesn't help you when your competition is getting the jobs you're losing.

Totally different here in Germany, sadly. Many, if not most, postproduction studios are tool-focused, and in average also much more conservative. The markets however are very different in L.A. and Berlin in many aspects.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Ok.. So he wants stuff sooner than it's ready.. And he pitching up a little storm over here in the hopes that someone will say "Wow, this guy's making us look bad, we better do everything he wants right away!!"



Don't think so.. RED is doing what they do, the way they do it. You don't have to like it, but if you want to be involved, you will have to live with it. Good business is never run by thinking of today, it's run by thinking three months from now, in some cases 5 years.

Jay

Almost all of us will get what we want, but it will take time..
Wow. There's quite an echo in here.. Off to read something else...

 

[Andrew Madu]

Anyhow, it makes no sense to need a 50.000$ online to access the 4k format of a 17.500$ camera. FCP doesn´t access 4k, its 2k, sadly.

100% in agreement.

 

[Maz Mawlawi]

REDCINE is free, and it transcodes just fine. You don't have to buy SCRATCH.

It's free...that's true....but currently it's pretty damn buggy and border line unusable unless you have a "lucky" system.... We have RedCine on 5 different computers and only ONE of them can actually output files successfully about 75% of the time... yes, yes...I know it's in beta but I have that bad feeling that RedCine is going to be one of those apps that's going to be very picky on what hardware it's going to need. But I hope I am wrong.... :meh:
The nice thing about Adobe/Avid/Sony etc...is they have software that is for the most part pretty stable on most platform/configuration. It sure would be nice to be able to use those tools natively. I myself do hope that we can eventually use RED files with those apps whether it's via Cineform or natively.
I am sure it's only a matter of time, but it's indeed a little frustrating having this great camera to shoot with but a very qwerky/limited workflow... (at least for now)

 

[Jon Corcuera]

I have no idea of why RED takes the decition to go with scratch and FCP.
But i could guess that when it starts his development they have to take the decittion to cut costs, and I understand it was a good way to get them in to the game to develop redcine and to have a film editing that suports it.
Of course for that they have to give the exclusive for a short while to scracth and FCP, in exchange.
I think it was a smart bussiness move.
Now the 3rd partys waching the success of RED they demand to get in and the posproduction facilitys, specialy the ones that have thoose softwares, but hey!! we can´t forget that once you make a deal you have to respect that deal.
That is what i deduct but obviusly I could be completely wrong. So I have all the respect for Red to keep theyre word because thats for me the base of every human interchange. And obviusly I will be happy when they can free theyre product because it will be for the best of future costumers but I respect theyre actual situation.

Jon Corcuera

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Now the 3rd partys waching the success of RED they demand to get in and the posproduction facilitys, specialy the ones that have thoose softwares, but hey!! we can´t forget that once you make a deal you have to respect that deal.
That is what i deduct but obviusly I could be completely wrong. So I have all the respect for Red to keep theyre word because thats for me the base of every human interchange. And obviusly I will be happy when they can free theyre product because it will be for the best of future costumers but I respect theyre actual situation.

Jon Corcuera

Jon -

I worked in the NAB 2006 Red booth every day. The IBC 2006 booth every day. And the NAB 2007 booth every day. I have seen, up close, how companies reacted over time to Red. I have heard, and over-heard talk behind Jim and Red's back.

In the beginning, many laughed at Jim. This is not urban legend. I was there. I heard it. Not only did some call it a "scam" - some were even foolish enough to try to TAKE FINANCIAL ADVANTAGE OF JIM AND/OR RED - I suspect that most of those folks will regret their actions if they don't already ...

 

[Jon Corcuera]

I trust you, I wasn´t there but I know the bussiness world since I am little, That´s why I give a lot of credit to RED and Jim because even not knowing in first hand what they have come through I can imagine pretty aproximately.
Obviusly forcing to break the deal wich I know he probably will be able to do If wanted, will be quite easy and will be quite profitable in the short term but he is steaking to it an I find that the best economical policy that one can do, for not talking about keeping your soul in calm and this nobody can pay it or return it.
I will be critical with the camera and everything related to cuality but i will never put theyre spirit and ethics in doubt because they have all ready give a leason in this inmoral work that is Image.
I think there is a book that is titled the great(the advantages) of been good or somethng like that, i never readed but it has been my personal policy for years, and nobody will make me stay apart from it. Therefore i desire all the succes to every company that uses this policy because maybe that way others will follow it.
Jon Corcuera
DIT/AC/Human with feelings

 

[Thomas Mathai]

What's the price difference between Scratch and "smoke/flame/lustre/pronto/clipster/baselight/xpri/speedgrade/filmmaster/pablo/Avid DS"

 

[M Most]

What's the price difference between Scratch and "smoke/flame/lustre/pronto/clipster/baselight/xpri/speedgrade/filmmaster/pablo/Avid DS"

You've listed 11 products with 11 widely varying price points. If you're interested in all of them, you should contact either the company that makes them or a reseller rather than rely on uninformed hearsay on an Internet forum devoted to none of them.