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Wages Of Big Hit DP's

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dracul

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I suspect many will steer away from posting real figures but perhaps those that are anonymous can.

I shot about 15 music videos on film about 5 years ago but they were all low budget and i never charged more the $500/shoot day. Well, i've been dormant for the last 5 years in this business pursuing other things and now my needs and perspectives have changed.

While I have a reel its not impressive enough to get the big budget hip hop videos or commercials, features etc...

So, my plan is to invest a min of $50k -$100k wisely in a demo using the red entirely of course. I would however only do this if I had a pretty good chance I could charge 10k/day as a DP. Of course I understand even after my 100k reel investment I need to get some big jobs under my belt first. Perhaps 15-25 commercials?
Is this realistic or am i living a dream?
Also I have heard some of these ASC guys can charge 30k per day for commercials. Is this true?
 
dracul said:
I would however only do this if I had a pretty good chance I could charge 10k/day as a DP.
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There's a lot that goes into people being able to have day rates like that. Chops are mandatory, of course, but it also has to do with networking, luck, and convincing other people that your work is great.

In other words, there's DPs out there that are very, very good and can do top level work, but don't pull in rock star rates like that. Why? There's as many factors as there are stars in the sky. But just assuming you get the chops after spending $100k to develop your reel is dubious logic as well, and that's just for starters.

However, with that said, I know my DP skills never took off until I had access to a good camera and just went and shot as much as I could. If buying a Red is part of that for you, my personal experience would be that that part would be sound.
 
Commercial rates are much higher than feature or TV rates -- generally your week rate on a feature is the same as your day rate on a commercial.

Features tend to not pay much more than a few thousand a week over guild (IATSE) minimum unless you are one of the most successful DP's. Otherwise the studios are pretty insistent on keeping crew costs down -- salaries in the past decade have hardly risen overall for below-the-line folks, including DP's.
 
if I had a pretty good chance I could charge 10k/day as a DP.
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Sounds a little like dreamland to me but I don't know about the US. I've been a Dp for 15 years shooting pretty exclusively on commercials and I haven't heard of anyone earning that kind of money - I shot a commercial with a top flight Us director (now a stong features name) a couple of years ago and he was on 14k a day as the director - so I can't imagine that his US DP is earning the same (or twice) what he would be in general - I certainly wasn't. I know that people reckon I'm in a highly (over)paid part of the film business but the figures you're talking (30,000) sound like oscar nom or household name DPs.

In short if you have 100 grand to drop on a demo you might be better off holding onto it for a more surefire investment. Plus if you've been dormant for five years and your last work was 500 dollar a day videos - what makes you think you're now worth 20 times that? I would exercise caution.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
Commercial rates are much higher than feature or TV rates -- generally your week rate on a feature is the same as your day rate on a commercial.

Features tend to not pay much more than a few thousand a week over guild (IATSE) minimum unless you are one of the most successful DP's. Otherwise the studios are pretty insistent on keeping crew costs down -- salaries in the past decade have hardly risen overall for below-the-line folks, including DP's.
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Thank you, i used to work for partners a big commercial house in toronto , you may have heard the local dp's were charging about 3500 a day but that was about 6 years ago. However, they would at times fly in usa dp's ussually with the us directors and heard these guys charge 10k/day. Do you know of anyone particularly charging this in la?
What about for this expensive HIP HOP videos?
 
jtm said:
Sounds a little like dreamland to me but I don't know about the US. I've been a Dp for 15 years shooting pretty exclusively on commercials and I haven't heard of anyone earning that kind of money - I shot a commercial with a top flight Us director (now a stong features name) a couple of years ago and he was on 14k a day as the director - so I can't imagine that his US DP is earning the same (or twice) what he would be in general - I certainly wasn't. I know that people reckon I'm in a highly (over)paid part of the film business but the figures you're talking (30,000) sound like oscar nom or household name DPs.

In short if you have 100 grand to drop on a demo you might be better off holding onto it for a more surefire investment. Plus if you've been dormant for five years and your last work was 500 dollar a day videos - what makes you think you're now worth 20 times that? I would exercise caution.
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Well you are correct, I cannot claim I am worth 10k/day infact I remember seeing these commercial dps working on set all day thinking why is this guy better then that other guy that charges only 3500? And he wasn't any better. he could charge that only because he worked with so and so director who just shot the latest janet jackson or madonna video. Thats all.
But after my reel I could shoot a few big name videos or perhaps only one and everything could change from that moment. Suddently, everyone wants me because i just shot that so and so video. ... Commercial and video folk are like that... aren't they?
 
jtm said:
They sure are - it's a lottery in that regard. I was merely suggesting caution if you were going to drop 100k on a demo - you might never get it back. First rule of the film business : Never spend your own money ;)
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ok. caution acknowledged, perhaps i should scale that down. Perhaps i am exagerating things, it may be sufficient to just do more freebies and some cheap day rates. I remember in toronto i did lots of low budget music videos some free some paid but could not move to something bigger. Perhaps it was only lack of networking.
 
In the main DP's tend to move because a director that they have supported will get a break and pull them with him. On the other hand they may say "hasta la swissta" and wave from their limo whilst snorting coke off a call girls pally-valley. In that sense it's a lottery. Networking and forming bonds with directors is the key generally.

EDIT : I generally tend to find that Dp's become respectable after a few years of good work and producers and production companies get a good feel for them. In the main directors want a willing collaborator and producers want to feel that you are reasonable to deal with - I've seen many Dp's push the budget out - threatening to bankrupt the producer - get terrific images and never work with that production company again. It's not just about stunning work. It's about the complete package.
 
jtm said:
In the main DP's tend to move because a director that they have supported will get a break and pull them with him. On the other hand they may say "hasta la swissta" and wave from their limo whilst snorting coke off a call girls pally-valley. In that sense it's a lottery. Networking and forming bonds with directors is the key generally.

EDIT : I generally tend to find that Dp's become respectable after a few years of good work and producers and production companies get a good feel for them. In the main directors want a willing collaborator and producers want to feel that you are reasonable to deal with - I've seen many Dp's push the budget out - threatening to bankrupt the producer - get terrific images and never work with that production company again. It's not just about stunning work. It's about the complete package.
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Thanks. The problem however I found in toronto, canada was most producers and productions are not willing to risk hiring a new little experienced DP. I heard people saying I should try the usa because people are more willing to give newbies a chance and therefore more risk takers.
 
dracul said:
Thanks. The problem however I found in toronto, canada was most producers and productions are not willing to risk hiring a new little experienced DP. I heard people saying I should try the usa because people are more willing to give newbies a chance and therefore more risk takers.
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I doubt that. Producers, directors don't magically change their criteria for picking DPs on a geographic basis.

It's tough to break in everywhere.
 
I've shot thirty features and one TV series, and only two commercials... it's a hard business to break into, clients and agencies are spending a lot of money and like to cover their bets by hiring a top DP who has done similar work, which is why in commercials you have experts in shooting cars or food or children or dogs, etc.

But the rates are nice if you can get the job. The Mastercard commercial I shot paid $5000/day and an Ambien CR commercial paid $3000/day.

So while 10K/day is certainly possible, you may want to set your income goals a little lower initially...
 
Those figures are more in line with my experience.

Where your break comes from and how you are perceived are difficult things to control - I was lucky as a guy I met in film school left it and got signed as a director (he's a tenacious SOB) - and pulled me along to shoot for him before I left film school. On one of my first jobs I was shooting a commercial age 23 with a cam op who had worked on one of the Star Wars films (at which stage I would have been 7 years old). Nerve wracking stuff but he was a nice fella.

At the time where I live it was a precious few people involved in film and producers wanted a regime change (cameramen talking 2 days to light a beer etc). I was lucky and timing was my ally - i got a break - since then I have shot about a commercial a week (on average) - I could have done the exact same things with no result. It's impossible to say.

Just be careful - I know lots of people who never cracked it (and, believe me, I know lots of them, more than success stories - the people who were successful were mostly persistent). The argument from the unsuccessful people (usually after they approach you with a few beers) is that it is a "closed shop" (as though I go bowling with the producers) - nothing could be farther from the truth. Mostly they are not hired simply because they are unknown quantities. How would they change this? I haven't a clue. Its a lot like acting - John Travolta, number one actor in 1980 (for example) - ten years later can't get a job to save his life - along comes Pulp Fiction (directed by a Travolta fanboy) and boom! 20 mil a picture. Why? i don't know - he was the same actor last week. Perception is all, it seems.
 
thank you all for your input. I used to think this money was good money but not any longer. Not when you consider what you have to do to get there and such uncertainties.
 
I'd say go for it, as far as the d.p. thing, if that's what your heart really desires. But DON'T SPEND $100K for a demo. Maybe 10K, and ask a lot of favors for your one 1-2 day demo.
 
Maybe a better question would be: "How hard is it to make a living at it?" To make an analogy: film school can cost you a heckuva lot more than $100k, but the chances of becoming a working feature film or commercial director aren't all that great... so if you end up doing industrials / waiting tables / whatever else the "rest" of the would-be directors are doing, how long will it take you to pay back that AFI tuition? I sort of feel like the situation must be better for DP's - but maybe someone who actually knows could chime in.

Mostly they are not hired simply because they are unknown quantities. How would they change this?
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Not with a reel? That's strange to me... Comparing it to my own industry (visual fx) - if you've got a good reel, you work. Then again, vfx is a much younger field (the field, not the people - though the people are too, I guess), so there's not as much politics involved. And the salaries top out much lower.

p.s. - "palley valley?"
 
It seems to me like artists of any kind will only work at jobs that are slightly below their potential or skill level. Producers are just so cautious that they would never hire anyone who 'might be able to do it if they really pushed themselves'. They want to know that you can come in and slaughter the job, absolutely do it with your eyes shut. So if you're hiring for a commercial shooting glamour, you want the guy who has done it two trillion times already and probably in reality is absolutely bored of doing it.
 
I think this is a great question. I also don't think you need to spend 50k on a demo. You could spend maybe 20k. use 10k for a named actor for a day. 10k for the shoot and some favors.
I don't however think you should shoot no budgets anymore. No budgets are for learning. After 5 no budget music videos you should move up. Also music video budgets have shrunk to about 1/5 of what they use to be. Most big budget music videos now cost between 100k-250k. 5 years ago it was 500k-800k. I honestly would tell you to hire a great director for a day and some talent for a day and shoot a music video for a band that has a great song. This way you can be associated with breaking a band.

I would have a look at all Outkast and Busta Rhymes videos.
To directors to find out their DP's would be hype williams and joseph kahn. If you can come close to bringing that vision to life you can make 5k a day easy. Peace
 
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