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RED or Film School?

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iseras

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Guys,

It's a pleasure to be a member of this community and a potential RED ONE owner. I've been readings tons of posts over the past few months and the red is without a doubt a revolutionary piece of equipment. I have a question that i'd like your input on:

Assuming your ultimate ambition is to make a living making movies (which probably applies to most of you), would you go with Film School, the Red One, or both?

I feel that the skills that you learn in film school and the intense learning environment along with the connections you make are invaluable. Filmmaking is a craft and perfecting it in a safe and intense environment is important. But then again, film school is crazy expensive and puts you out of the workforce for 2-3 years.

The Red I feel teaches you and gives you the opportunity to simply shoot your own films and refine your skill on your own. Learn by doing sort of thing. You can also start a business out of it and earn a living out of it through freelance work or setting up a small production company as you pursue making your own films. It's also relatively affordable.

So if you guys had the choice, which would you go with? A couple of years of intense learning and connections, or a piece of cutting edge equipment that you can use both to learn and create? Or both?! Is this the sort of camera that is feasible for an independent filmmaker rather than a production studio? All inputs are welcome!

It's great to be a part of this community!
 
It depends on quite a number of things:

1) Where do you live?
2) Which film school?
3) How good a student are you?
4) How good at networking are you?

I would strongly suggest going along to the open days at your prospective film schools. Go to a couple of screenings of student films from those institutions, and have a couple of indepth chats with students who are currently studying there (and have some questions prepared for those students).

The majority of student films that I've seen have been less than impressive, and there is a pretty strong argument for the "read books, watch films, read books about those films, and enter short film competitions" method - especially in an industry that has very little use for university degrees.

In the end it comes down to deciding which of those choices will most aid your filmmaking, and your likelihood of earning a crust from it.
 
Having just received my RED there is one thing you have to know: it's a heavy and big camera, nothing like any DV or HDV camera you might have seen before. You need a heavy tripod to support it. Altogether too much if you're just on your own and want to learn about cameras.

Remember also that good image quality doesn't equal a good movie. Yes, bad image quality can ruin a movie but before that there's story, actors, light, grip, editing, effects, music, soundtrack, etc.
 
RED vs. Film school huh? Interesting counterparts.
They both cost about the same.

The only comment I have (not wishing to get embroiled in the Film School vs. No Film School debate that will ensue from this thread) is that I don't think a RED is an ideal camera for novice users.

If you've never shot anything before, I'd go with something like an HVX200. Work flow is simple, entry price point is low, image quality is great, and using it is a breeze.

Also, people go to film schools for many reasons, not just to learn to make films. Many go to gain terminal teaching degrees (MFA's), or simply to study critical film theory, things you can't gain working in the industry.
 
Grug said:
It depends on quite a number of things:
.. especially in an industry that has very little use for university degrees.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I just have to call you on this comment. You make it sound like the film industry has only one facet, that simply isn't true.

Sure, the fiction film industry may (on the whole) have little appreciation for degrees, but I know many documentary, museum, multimedia, and industrial production companies that hold degrees in very high regard.
 
Film school. Hands down.

I would argue that if your goal is to shoot (DP) or direct, then you need more than just production knowledge. Understanding the history of film and the minutiae of filmmaking is often underestimated. Too many beginning filmmakers try to be innovative and not realize that many of their "innovations" were originally done in the early 1900's. You've got to know where you've come from to know where you ought to go. That, combined with the practice you'll get (not to mention the ability to screw up with little or no consequence) and people you'll meet, will really help. That said, if you really think that you can be driven enough to read all the books and study and watch on your own, then do it.

The investment in a RED is certainly not a bad idea. It's a revolutionary camera, no question. But it won't guarantee that you'll be a good filmmaker. Not to mention that you'll still need lenses, lights, sound gear, support equipment, post production equipment, etc. All of that adds up. My suggestion is that you should use (at least while you're learning) what equipment you have access to/can gain access to. You'd be surprised by how many films shot on consumer cameras make it into festivals. Then when you're ready to shoot your first feature, save your money up and do it. Remember that actors and crew aren't free, either. ;)

My .02$

W
 
How about take a screenwriting class? Having a Red or a film school education is worthless if you ain't got anything to say. And I daresay film school is a much greater commitment both in time and money than a Red camera. Well I guess it depends which film school you have in mind but I'm thinking of the best ones- NYU, USC, UCLA, AFI, etc.

In the old days the whole point of going to film school was access to expensive production and post-production equipment along with good networking opportunities. The latter is still perfectly valid but the former is way out the window. Give me a good screenplay and a DV camera any day of the week and I'll make something watchable.

Noah
 
There's no right answer and there's no guarantees in this business.

If you're young and you don't have a degree - go to film school. An undergraduate degree demonstrates your ability to learn and you can finish what you start. You'll have peers who'll grow with you and the opportunity to make mistakes when it doesn't really matter.

If you're a bit older and already have an education and a track record (in an unrelated field presumably), you might consider more specialized training or perhaps you can morph your existing career path into the film business.

Whatever you decide will be the right answer for you.
 
When your young I think you need to develop your talent more by watching and learning rather than always doing. If you are isolated in your practice of filmmaking and get into some bad habits, they are harder to break later on.
This is not to say that you cant make your own path,But just as painters and
sculpters study the masters then find there own style, I think it would be wise to learn first.

Don't discount Universities though, A well rounded educatiion will serve you well in many ways you don't think about.

When you graduate you can rent until you can own.
 
Having been to a film school myself and having ordered a RED ONE, I will suggest this - go to school, learn the art of film making, MAKE CONNECTIONS and make all the mistakes you can.

After leaving film school buy RED THREE and follow your dreams.
 
Definitely film school. Cameras and technology are tools that can be bought anytime. Film school will be a worth while and valuable investment that will enhance your tools that you buy or use.
 
Sure is a strange question (like comparison between a strawberry and a whale) but in my opinion ideal thing would be both.
I would not recommend going first with a prosumer camera or easier for the novice, learn Red and you learn directly the pro way, learn with an HDV and then you'll have to learn everything from scratch again (as far as using cameras is concerned).
With Red you're FORCED to learn focusing, exposing, using lenses and depth of field etc ... prosumer cameras call for misuse, autofocus, autoexposure, autogain .... things that simply spoil learning.
So, a film school with a RED would be perfect :biggrin:
 
Read some of the threads here along the lines of "how do I remove the body cap?" and you will find your answer.

Buying a camera doesn't make you a director any more than buying paint makes you an artist.

Film school is where you have a chance to make all your mistakes without it getting fired. It's also where you will meet many of the people you'll be working with.

You will regret it if you don't go.
 
look at post #3 ...

when you say "film school" do you mean a 1-2yr film (only ) program or something like a college where you major in film and you must take other type classes like USC/UCLA ?

what is your background ?
you just get out of high school ?
any college ?
you been working for past ? years in what field ?
you ever make a video/film ?
approx age ?
you have a family, children etc?
 
Having just graduated from NYU film, I can wholeheartedly say, go to film school! If Red was available at the beginning of my freshman year, it would have been such a waist to buy it. I can say that I am a much more informed, mature filmmaker than I was 4 years ago. I was very skeptical of the whole film-educational process (thinking I should just PA and make films on my own instead), but looking back, it has made a huge difference. If you were to start making films right now, who would your crew be? Do you know a DP, ACs, an AD, Producers, Grips and Electrics, Art Directors, PA's all who would work for free?
Now that I've graduated, I'm in development on a micro-budget feature which I play to shoot on Red (rented). It is through my friends who will work for deferred pay, my connections with rental houses and casting agents, the writing and sociology classes I took, etc. that I will enable me to pull this off.
 
I think it might be good to figure out for yourself what you mean by 'making movies'. What are your aspirations? If there was only one task on set you could do, which would be yours? What are your talents..?

Try to find a strategy in order to get to that point where you want to go. Do you want to be a director? Then maybe learning to team up and work with people is more important then knowing all technical aspects of (using) a camera. And so on. Talk to literally everybody you meet about this subject. Almost anyone will have something clever to say about it. It will also help you build a network. What if your uncle turns out to have a friend in the industry? Also it will get you thinking. By telling your story over and over again, you'll keep adjusting it. Chances are you'll finally end up with something you will want to stick with for a while. That is probably your best starting point.

I think film school can be a great step into the world of movie making. However recent developments in the industry (dv-cameras, editing at home on pc or mac etc.), have really increased your chances of doing what you wish to do even without going to film school. And you can always hire skilled people to help you get to the next level. That way you make mistakes and learn along the way. Which is probably not a bad thing. You should be making mistakes your whole career if all is well. Otherwise you are not pushing your limits. And that has never won anyone an Oscar.

Personally, I haven't been to film school myself. I studied Communication and after that started a small production company together with a good friend. We started out with a dvx100 and along the way we've added more equipment on sound and lighting. We study books and the internet, do commercial jobs and hire skilled people when the budget allows for it.
Now we feel we are sometimes limited by the capabilities of the dvx100, as we get more and more clients who demand higher quality images. We demand that too actually. So we have rented cameras every now and then, and now we think it could be a good step up to start playing around with a RED One. So we ordered one. Because of that decision, we are now getting into contact with people that we probably otherwise would have never met.
What I am trying to say is that we had no clue what we were getting into in the beginning. We still don't. Yet things keep rolling and developing. And we have found that - as long as you are really passionate in the pursuit of your goals - there are a lot of people out there that are willing to help you.

We had an interview with Jonathan Demme (Silence of the Lambs, Philadelphia) at Film by the Sea film festival two years back and one of the things he said was: '...when I started out in my career I really didn't know how to create great shots. I could recognize great shots, but I really had no idea how to make them myself. However I found out that, as long as you work with gifted people you don't have to do everything yourself..'
This year we had Sir Ben Kingsley (Ghandi) at the festival and one of the people in the audience asked him: "Do you think it was mostly luck or talent that got you this far in your career". Sir Kingsley answered: 'The thing is, I think I have always been ready for the opportunities that came along my path.' I thought both these statements were really inspiring.

Anyway, whatever your decision will be.. an HVX200, a RED One, film school or maybe something else.. if you set your goals and share them with the right people, you have a good chance that you will keep improving fast. Now stop reading this nonsense, pick up a camera and keep playing around. That is still the best way to learn. Good luck :)
 
My friend
It's not the equipment. It's how you use it! Buying the Red will make you very tech savvy guy (may be) but never good story teller just because you have big equipment.
 
With real world set experience you will learn more in a day then in a month of film school.

With film school you will get the chance to learn some things that no one will teach you on set.

My advice is to take film school but when ever you get the chance to work or volunteer on a real music vid / commercial / short... skip school and take it. There are some great things you will learn in film school but real world sets give you great experience, valuable contacts and also a lot of education. By doing both you will be further ahead. By the way your marks in school mean nothing, just keep your head above water so you pass. I skipped a lot of film school to work on projects. I did not get the best marks in many classes but when it came to actual film school "projects" no one in my class was even close to my level. I had a job a month before I finished school.
 
I'm surprised by how many answers you've received, because in my mind you didn't give out enough answer to make an informed suggestion!

First, as Donatello asked, are you speaking of a 1-2 year tech program or a Bachelor's degree? That will take 4-5 years.

Second, what film school are we talking about? If it's some random state film school, that's one thing. If you have a free ride to USC on the table, that's something else entirely.

Depending on school, a fully-loaded Red One could only be equivelent to a year's tuition! But without knowing, we're not comparing things properly.

Next, what type of learner are you? I am extremely self-motivated and can read voraciously stacks of good books on filmmaking, condensing years worth of courses into months. Some people can't do that. Left to their own devices they would just dink around for years and they need the structure of film school to force them down a certain path of learning.

Lastly, as others have pointed out, where are you in life? Do you already have a bachelor's degree? Do you have a good job, a big savings account, a rich dad/uncle that will buy these things for you? Do you have a wife or kids? Not to pry per se, but you did ask for advice and these all factor in heavily into film school or a Red one.
 
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