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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

2K scaling...

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I think it's about recording time and data storage for many, right?

My documentary is going to be at least 300 hours of raw footage. At one point, I was sure I would shoot 2k for budgetary reasons, but have since decided to buy a small warehouse of drives and go for 4k.

...But I can still imagine that others working on similar projects that will accumulate tons of footage could desire scaled 2k.
 
Jannard said:
For those of you that have been asking for 2K scaling... you are asking for the wrong thing.

The only possible reason that you could be asking for this... is the misconception that we might be able to deliver 2K with full frame capability at higher frame rates. This is not possible. What you really should be asking for is 4K at 60 fps that can be recorded to CF or RED Flash Drives. That is a real possibility in the future.

The sensor clock speed is 60 fps at full frame (35mm sensor size). That's all there is. So why not ask for 4K at 60fps? 2K scaled just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. If we could deliver 2K full frame at 60fps, we could deliver 4K at 60fps.

Jim
Click to expand...

Jim, I would like 4K at 60fps to CF for all those lucky RED owners as my holiday wish to them.

Happy Holidays.
 
YES! 4K at 60fps would be the ultimate bad-a$$. We will have the RED Drive very soon and in a year from now we will have 64BG CF-cards ... so I couldn't care less about 2K scaled with some limited algorithm to be able to do it in real-time on the camera.

I want to be able to frame and scale freely from my 4K material and not be limited to 2K for anything faster than 30fps.

Thanks for trying to make that happen!
 
60 fps at 4K sounds very good. However that does not take away the need for 2K scaled. It's not just about the framerates, but definitely about DOF for us. We'd love the possibility to shoot 2K scaled for certain projects where we need to shoot big amounts of footage and have them stored for a long time. Probably within a few years time capacity of storage solutions have increased and computers are faster. Then 4K will be the standard for us. But for now we plan on shooting most in 2K.
 
If scaled 2K is 7Mb/sec. Then two things happen. Firstly the same 16G card now holds something ridiculous like 40 minutes (which is getting closer to the traditional run-time of tape). Secondly we dont need to wait for CF cards that support 40MB/s; we dont need that datarate anymore so cheaper cards at higher capacity.

I think potentially its huge. Why? well, also the bayer sensor doesnt resolve full 4K. I think Ive heard estimates around 2.5K - 3K. So scaled to some of these formats wouldnt lose much of the image resolution but would save on space. Further to that, processing power in the edit. Redcode Raw at 2.5K would be surely less taxing on your system than at 4K, less rendering time and perhaps more realtime.

There are cases when the red-drive just isnt practical and I think Im not alone in not trusting precious footage to a drive if I dont have too. Flash has proved itself far more reliable.

If it's not possible, then all good. But just wanted to point out the benefits.
 
Jim. I think we hear what you are saying. I always thought that 2K scaled would get me two things: longer record times to CF (because of the advantages of CF over a HD), and much faster post production delivery to 1080P.
But of course I'd much rather record at 4K! ... 80% of the time I'll be using my lovely new camera for broadcast delivery (1080P), SD DVD delivery (720x576), or web delivery, (320x240). Or often all three on a single project.
So I don't really care about "2K" Scaled. When I am shooting a movie I'll film it 4K, without question.

What I think we would value enormously is having some kind of in-camera scaling that will make 1080P delivery much faster! If such a thing can be made to work..
 
Although I'm very happy that Red are working towards the goal of 4k at 60fps, this seems to be moving away from the possibility of 1080p HD-SDI output, which Stuart said here might only be possible when 1080p RGB recording was enabled.

One thing at a time I know, and I don't want to seem greedy, but I'm wondering if 1080p recording (and the resulting 1080p live output) is still on the cards at some point in the future.
 
You don't really want scaled to 2K, do you?

You don't really want scaled to 2K, do you?

Guys, as was pointed out in another thread, if you scale raw data to "2K", you're only going to wind up with about 70% of 2K; remember, the data will still be BAYERED raw. So in fact, if you want the equivalent of scaling 4K raw to 2K RGB in post, you need to scale to about 2.9K raw.

If you scale to the equivalent of 2K photosites, you wind up with less than Sony's crappy 1440 x 1080.

At least, that's how it would seem to work out...
 
I just want to shoot 60fps on the full chip. While there would be benefits to 2K scaled, its not nearly as essential. (to me!)

I've only lobbied for 2K scaled in the past, because I thought it was the only possible way to get the full chip optically.

4K 60fps would ROCK!
 
furure and storage

furure and storage

in my humble opinion by the time i'll have my # 3XXX RED big and fast storage solutions will be so much more affordable and performing that 60 fps 4K will be just PERFECT! :whistling:

In my opinion scaled 2K would be just a temporary compromise.
... and we are not here for compromise, right?

I would more stress out for a very optimized REDCINE with super 8 core optimization for very very fast rescaling and encoding, maybe compatible with a batch system (like Apple QMaster in Compressor) for distributed rendering.

60 fps 4K just rocks :turned:
 
Valde said:
in my humble opinion by the time i'll have my # 3XXX RED big and fast storage solutions will be so much more affordable and performing that 60 fps 4K will be just PERFECT! :whistling:

In my opinion scaled 2K would be just a temporary compromise.
... and we are not here for compromise, right?

I would more stress out for a very optimized REDCINE with super 8 core optimization for very very fast rescaling and encoding, maybe compatible with a batch system (like Apple QMaster in Compressor) for distributed rendering.

60 fps 4K just rocks :turned:
Click to expand...

Well you see, I think that is just the thing.. Even with "super 8-core optimization" the render times are not at all very very fast. Which may or not be an issue depending on what the job is..
 
Cinewalt said:
I think it's about recording time and data storage for many, right?

My documentary is going to be at least 300 hours of raw footage. At one point, I was sure I would shoot 2k for budgetary reasons, but have since decided to buy a small warehouse of drives and go for 4k.

...But I can still imagine that others working on similar projects that will accumulate tons of footage could desire scaled 2k.
Click to expand...

I hear you. Will your documentary involve observational filming? Lightweight, hand-held run-and-gun type filming? If so then recording a maximum of 8 minutes of footage to a $400 16GB CF card will be a challenge no? Not impossible of course, and indeed comparable to the early days of filming Documentaries on 16mm, but a BIG change from filming hours and hours of footage onto super cheap 60 minute HDV tapes...:whistling:
The Red Drive sounds cool, but it does mean: rods, size and weight. A difference of 2Kg on your shoulder..:weight_lift: and you'll need a bigger heavier bag to stuff it all into...
I vote for 1080P onto CF :gun:
 
Cinewalt said:
I think it's about recording time and data storage for many, right?

My documentary is going to be at least 300 hours of raw footage. At one point, I was sure I would shoot 2k for budgetary reasons, but have since decided to buy a small warehouse of drives and go for 4k.

...But I can still imagine that others working on similar projects that will accumulate tons of footage could desire scaled 2k.
Click to expand...

I recently finished shooting a documentary that was filmed in the himalayan region Ladakh. It was shot on P2 cards and than put on to mirrored 500 gig Q drives. This was all done over a period of two and a half years. We shot in some of the most remote places on earth and all said and done with out issue of any sort in regard to short filming time.
You should not have much of a problem, Good luck with your DOC.
 
Oh, definitely 4K at 60p is the absolute ideal! I was asking for 2K scaled because I thought it would be easier for the camera to process slo-mo if the footage had already been scaled down, but the whole point (for me, anyways) is higher frame rates with full frame FOV. If 60p (or even just 48p) is possible in 4K, then rock on!
 
It sounds like Jim is telling us where the bottle neck is in the camera hardware and since this is a hardware issue, its not as likely to change anytime soon. There is some really important information being conveyed here, so rather than complain that the reality doesn't fit our ideal, its better to try and learn what is possible based upon the reality of the camera system.

Shooting 2k 'scaled' is really shooting 4k in camera, then doing an integer down sample, followed by data formating and storage.

We know that the camera can shoot 4k at current frame rates, and Jim has stated that the row/column clock limits the upper frame rate to 60 fps so that indicates where the read/quantize cycle limits are for a full size sensor frame and where it hits its upper boundary.

The issue seems to be post quantizer processing capability. This makes sense as the task of writing out to storage is limited mostly by the writing speed of the storage device. So, if faster, larger storage is coming soon, like the RED DRIVE, then capacity will effectively become a non issue.

So, if we have an off camera tool that can handle the task of creating the 2k working assets (via RedAlert! or RedCine) why burden the camera with a task that can be handled elsewhere?

No matter how talented the RED team is, there are limited development resources to throw at any problem. Pursuing something which already has a solution isn't making the best use of this resource. Getting to a higher frame rate and getting a greater capacity storage solution would seem to me to be a much better use of the development resources available.

So, I say GREAT! Do what makes sense and give us more choices not less.

I would rather have high frame rate 4k in camera (with a storage solution that makes sense for this usage) that can be processed to 2k in post, this is 2 new shooting choices. This is a better end result than adding 2k scaled in camera (which sounds like an excessive burden to the in camera processing) alone and only yields (if even possible) a single new shooting option.

Kevin Halverson
 
Jannard said:
The original spec was tossed in the trash a long time ago...

Jim
Click to expand...

OK Jim,

got that :)

So the new signal processor is breaking the barrier and potentially enabling 60fps 4K REDCODE directly on the base cam, using the standart CF module and/or the REDDRIVE?

Because that would clearly solve the "problem" - many of us want simply (up to) 60fps full sensor, regardless if its HD, 2K or 4K. I guess many around would even accept an HDV gear doing full sensor, but the matte screen approaches available simply can't deliver the detail, they get to noisy and unsharp. Poeple want to tell the story, so they want DOF. To many story tellers this counts more than the pure HD/2K/4K numbers, after all.

So, as I just got email from you sales department (:)) I'd like to know if the gear on order will deliver 4K REDCODE 60fps?

A simple yes or no or soon would be sufficient. Ah, and a no is possibly not accepted due to your previous notes in this thread... :sarcasm:

Cheers,
Axel
 
I would absolutely love it! Give me 4k @ 1-60fps and 2K(windowed) at 1-120fps onto a "big" CF card or outboard to a Flash Pak (RED RAM), for long record times, and I'll be happier than a pig in . . . .
 
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