Red One and Shooting Mesh Objects

[Chris Nuzzaco]

Ok... So lately I've been shooting some needle point shirts with my DSLR, and in wider shots, I'm noticing this really weird effect. When the fine mesh gets pretty small from the cameras point of view, it starts making all these subtle colored bands. I'm sure this has something to do with the cameras bayer filter, and the fact that I'm shooting tiny almost pixel sized dots (from the cameras point of view and distance mind you).

Does Red One have this issue? If so, how can you work around this? What do you call this? The only thing I can come up with is "morrie like effect" (spelling?)...

 

[Greg M]

its a problem w/ any camera.
You can blur it in post, but the only way to work around it is to avoid it as much as possible.

 

[Chris Nuzzaco]

Really? All digital cameras? What about no pixel shifting 3 chip cameras?

 

[Brook Willard]

It's called Moiré.

All digital cameras have this issue, including 3CCD cameras. I've got the footage to prove it.

In front of every sensor is an optical low pass filter designed to combat moiré. While moiré is not a huge issue with the RED in general, RED is redesigning their OLPF [presumably for other reasons]. So the moiré may get better with the new filter... we'll find out soon enough.

In the mean time, you should either blur it slightly or just 86 the offending wardrobe. There's a reason you don't see many stripes in a wardrobe department.

 

[jbeale]

That is a Moiré pattern and there is the potential to find it on any image that has a regular sampling pattern (pixel array). Or even on a film negative, if you shoot through a screen door, cloth etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moiré_pattern

 

[Shawn Nelson]

Depending on how fine of a pattern you wish to see, go check out my thread for "Jumping in the Rain", it shows a pattern of netting around a trampoline. A number of DPs have been very impressed on how the footage shows no moire.

 

[Chris Nuzzaco]

Ah, ok, thanks guys. I wasn't sure if it fit into the same category, as I've always associated Moire with just stripes.

 

[Greg M]

it happens on 35mm too, its not just a digital problem.

 

[T. Glen Phelps]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moiré_pattern

 

[Chris Nuzzaco]

Interesting, I never knew film had this issue too.

 

[Alexis Hanawalt]

They'll turn you away as a studio audience member if you're wearing stripes.

 

[Craig Bowman]

When the Moon hits your eye like a big funny pattern thats a moirè!

 

[Casey Green]

yep...classic.

I've heard, "When a screen hits your eye, with a strange dpi, that's a moiré".

The slight defocus can help, but sometimes yields other undesirable results. Also, many times, you will get different versions of the moiré when viewing the same footage on different monitors or projectors. You may see it on one, because there is less resolution on the monitor, and possibly not notice the pattern nearly as much on a larger/higher quality monitor or projector. (it may not actually even be captured on film, but only an artifact of the monitor being viewed on.) For digital, this of course is not the case.

Best to avoid clothing and other textures that cause it, as previously stated, when possible.

 

[Scott Thomas]

They'll turn you away as a studio audience member if you're wearing stripes.

Strange. That never stopped Johnny Carson from wearing striped ties and jackets that did a number on those RCA TK-47s!

 

[alex andreermel]

moire tool in red cine to help??????

 

[Carl-August Savgård]

http://www.hasselblad.com/promotions/phocus.aspx

"Moiré removal
Even very high resolution images can exhibit moiré under certain circumstances. With the new Phocus, moiré is effectively removed without the need to make special mask selections or other manual procedures. Moiré removal is performed directly on the raw data."

If hasselblad can do it... the red can. =)

 

[PaulClements]

There was a greenscreen shot of a mesh bin being held, done very early on with the Red One... It held up very well against Moire issues if I recall. I'd find it for you but I've got to rush out... try searching here or on DVXuser, because it was some time ago.

Paul

 

[Brent J. Craig]

Interesting, I never knew film had this issue too.

I would say that it doesn't if the process doesn't involve any digital or video transfer steps. If you shoot reversal, or print neg directly to a print with no DI I can't imagine any reason you would see an effect that is caused by regular grids of pixels.

 

[Chris Nuzzaco]

There was a greenscreen shot of a mesh bin being held, done very early on with the Red One... It held up very well against Moire issues if I recall. I'd find it for you but I've got to rush out... try searching here or on DVXuser, because it was some time ago.

Paul

Ah, I know what your talking about, thats actually Andromeda... shot by me!

http://www.chrisnuzzaco.com/special_uploads/pencilcomparison.mov
http://www.chrisnuzzaco.com/special_uploads/movingpencils1.mov

I think there is a sleight instance of it though for like a quick second, but yeah, not terrible looking.

Crewpix, good point, I agree about that. I can't imagine this problem coming up on film if it never steps its foot into a digital/electronic realm. Certainly an
important detail worth mentioning.

 

[Chris Nuzzaco]

http://www.hasselblad.com/promotions/phocus-video.aspx

Go WAY into the video. Pretty amazing tool. Oh, and this video voice over wins an Oscar for being the most mundane sounding voice over ever....