Run and Gun with Birger and Canon

[Thor Wixom]

I've been thinking a lot lately about a useful tool that I will be "giving up" when I start working with my Red camera... Autofocus.

Will the Birger / Canon combo have an autofocus "mode" where it behaves like the fixed lenses on cameras such as the HVX200, and Z1U?

While autofocus comes with it's own set of difficulties, for me it solves more problems than it creates in most situations.

In my pre-Red life, I designed a lot of my shooting style around the autofocus peculiarities of each camera. I owned an HVX200, which had it's own response times, preference for focusing on foreground or background, etc. Same with my Z1U, and same with all my cameras going back to the "original" DV camera, the VX1000.

Getting to know a camera's autofocus peculiarities, then composing run and gun shots where the camera does exactly what I expect it to, can create some amazing compositions.

So, now I'm wondering if I can acheive this with a Birger / Canon combo.

From what I understand, the autofocus features of the compatible Canon lenses will be retained using the Birger mount.

But I've noticed that most still lenses focus very quickly. This is always desirable in still photo applications, and may be desirable in certain run and gun situations, but does the Birger / Canon combo have the ability to do slow, predictable, consistent autofocus movements?

Regardless of my desire to shoot cinema style with a focus puller and all that, I still want to be able to run and gun without a focus puller, and still have a high degree of reliability that my shot will be in focus.

Any info or perspective from Birger or anyone else will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

-Thor

 

[Bill Goehring]

Will the Birger / Canon combo have an autofocus "mode" where it behaves like the fixed lenses on cameras such as the HVX200, and Z1U?

No, it won't.

 

[Stephen Pruitt]

I think you're out of luck. As I understand it (and I don't understand much, mind you), the Birger system allow for focus CONTROL, but not AF on its own. There is no feedback system between the lens and the camera sensor, which is required for autofocus capabilities.

Stephen

 

[Thor Wixom]

I think you're out of luck. As I understand it (and I don't understand much, mind you), the Birger system allow for focus CONTROL, but not AF on its own. There is no feedback system between the lens and the camera sensor, which is required for autofocus capabilities.

Stephen

With the the magic focus assist, the camera is definately generating focus information from the sensor, converting it to a graph, and sending it to the display.

Suppose that information could be sent to the Birger, which in turn could make focusing "decisions" based on the info.

Just a thought. I'm sure it's not at simple as it sounds, but it sure would be cool, and would open the possibilities for run and gun shooting, especially for ENG work.

-Thor

 

[Milan Nikolic]

Sorry Thor you, and on that matter me too, are out of lack!

 

[Erik Widding]

No autofocus. Not yet at least.

We have a future module planned that will communicate with the lens mount and watch the video tap on the camera to effect auto-focus, and more importantly for cinema applications, an auto-interactive focus, which will overcome some of the problems with a traditional auto-focus. The system will not simply be based on the two dimensional image from the camera sensor. It will also be based on a three dimensional understanding of the dynamic scene. This is based on something we are working on for a homeland security application.

I will not be releasing any more details about this until we are ready to demonstrate the technology. This will probably be 2Q08.

 

[IAN SUN]

Sounds really cool Erik, I'm looking forward to it. If you you do manage to produce it, I'll order another mount set.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

No need for autofocus in 4K or 2K acquisition.

RED is not a poor tourist point-and-shoot (or even run-and-gun) camera.

RED is camera dedicated to digital cinema that needs a careful shooting.

If you need run and gun camera take Canon HV20.

More manual control to the camera lens can gain more creative decisions to the picture aesthetic.

Autofocus is just cheap Japanese marketing idea to sell more cameras to dummy masses.

 

[Babu Kantamneni]

No need for autofocus in 4K or 2K acquisition.

RED is not a poor tourist point-and-shoot (or even run-and-gun) camera.

RED is camera dedicated to digital cinema.

If you need run and gun camera take Canon HV20.

More manual control to the camera lens can gain more creative decisions.

Autofocus is just cheap Japanese marketing idea to sell more cameras to dummy masses.

You dont mince your words?!

 

[Harmonica]

No need for autofocus in 4K or 2K acquisition.

RED is not a poor tourist point-and-shoot (or even run-and-gun) camera.

RED is camera dedicated to digital cinema.

If you need run and gun camera take Canon HV20.

More manual control to the camera lens can gain more creative decisions.

Autofocus is just cheap Japanese marketing idea to sell more cameras to dummy masses.

I would respectfully disagree with you, Sanjin. AF would be handy for documentary and for capturing footage that needs to look like it was shot with AF.

 

[Thor Wixom]

No need for autofocus in 4K or 2K acquisition.

RED is not a poor tourist point-and-shoot (or even run-and-gun) camera.

RED is camera dedicated to digital cinema.

If you need run and gun camera take Canon HV20.

More manual control to the camera lens can gain more creative decisions.

Autofocus is just cheap Japanese marketing idea to sell more cameras to dummy masses.

Sanjin,

I respectfully disagree.

AF, like all tools, can be effectively used to acheive desirable results.

I use AF more like a focus assist. I don't expect it to do all the work for me. Just some of it.

If you know how to make use of it, it becomes like a dance between the operator and the "logic" of the AF device. You anticipate, frame for what you know the AF will select to focus on, and reframe accordingly.

I've captured some amazing shots that started with a still object in the foreground, surrounded by a soft bokeh. By slightly adjusting the framing of my shot as a fast moving object enters the frame, I get a perfect rack focus that locks into the actual distance of the object.

This is especially helpful when I'm shooting sports cars that are zipping by at 150+ mph. You don't get to go out on the track and measure, and sometimes even the same drivers take different lines on the same corners, making any type of measurement completely useless for focusing.

Even with the deeper DOF of 16mm and a seperate person pulling focus, it's hard to do this type of shot acurately with a manual focus lens. I have a lot of experience here. I know what I'm talking about. This is the primary reason I gave up shooting on film in favor of HDV.

AF on the Birger will enable this type of shooting on the Red, and I am very excited about it.

The fact that Erik is planning to add this feature means that I will be purchasing a Birger mount and a slew of Canon lenses.

I can't wait.

-Thor

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Thor OK,

agree,

then you go B4 to PL ADAPTOR to RED and rent Fuji or Canon ENG/EFP/HD lenses.

But that is a TV aesthetic for my point of view.

97% film aesthetic and 3% TV aesthetic that is a good balance.

To much TV aesthetic in a movie theater and you get dizzy.

And just go back home and watch TV.

I will watch now the classic car movies like INDIANAPOLIS and Le Mans and tell you later what I think.

 

[Siva Kollipara]

Erik,
How about taking help of RED's "Magic Focus Assist" to built this AF system?

 

[Eddie]

Sanjin... Are you afraid of loosing jobs as a focus puller or have you been drinking again?
The lenses which the birger mount control are all auto-focus lenses, so why no use the technology which they were build to employ?
Not everybody have your idea of lifestyle vintage-shooting, so don´t make the daily life of other people harder than neccesary, by discouraging the implementation of very useful technology.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Sanjin... Are you afraid of loosing jobs as a focus puller or have you been drinking again?
The lenses which the birger mount control are all auto-focus lenses, so why no use the technology which they were build to employ?
Not everybody have your idea of lifestyle vintage-shooting, so don´t make the daily life of other people harder than neccesary, by discouraging the implementation of very useful technology.

Answer is here from Erik Widding>>birger.com>>:

No autofocus. Not yet at least.

We have a future module planned that will communicate with the lens mount and watch the video tap on the camera to effect auto-focus, and more importantly for cinema applications, an auto-interactive focus, which will overcome some of the problems with a traditional auto-focus. The system will not simply be based on the two dimensional image from the camera sensor. It will also be based on a three dimensional understanding of the dynamic scene. This is based on something we are working on for a homeland security application.

I will not be releasing any more details about this until we are ready to demonstrate the technology. This will probably be 2Q08.

Until 2Q08 or later you have to use manual controls.

 

[roryhinds]

if you need auto focus the RED is not the camera for you.

 

[PaulClements]

No autofocus. Not yet at least.

We have a future module planned that will communicate with the lens mount and watch the video tap on the camera to effect auto-focus, and more importantly for cinema applications, an auto-interactive focus, which will overcome some of the problems with a traditional auto-focus. The system will not simply be based on the two dimensional image from the camera sensor. It will also be based on a three dimensional understanding of the dynamic scene. This is based on something we are working on for a homeland security application.

I will not be releasing any more details about this until we are ready to demonstrate the technology. This will probably be 2Q08.

Sounds promising Erik. I can see this being something a great many people will be interested in. I hope there will be a range of control methods and various speed of auto focus, delays on refocusing etc. Perhaps a touchscreen option for focusing if you're going to go the whole hog!

Sanjin and Rory, I'd argue that a quality AF would be an addition to the cameras that will be very necessary down the road. Why? With 5000 cameras out by the end of 2008 there simply won't be enough features/tv work to be made to sustain a profitable market for the camera. Autofocus capabilities would help the camera spread into many other markets and if done well could also make run and gun even nicer. I'd say bring it on - if it works well then it will relieve the saturation of Red as a cinema camera worldwide. Good stuff Erik.

But I do agree with both of you that if it's for cinema/high end TV it's not so useful.

Paul

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Sounds promising Erik. I can see this being something a great many people will be interested in. I hope there will be a range of control methods and various speed of auto focus, delays on refocusing etc. Perhaps a touchscreen option for focusing if you're going to go the whole hog!

Sanjin and Rory, I'd argue that a quality AF would be an addition to the cameras that will be very necessary down the road. Why? With 5000 cameras out by the end of 2008 there simply won't be enough features/tv work to be made to sustain a profitable market for the camera. Autofocus capabilities would help the camera spread into many other markets and if done well could also make run and gun even nicer. I'd say bring it on - if it works well then it will relieve the saturation of Red as a cinema camera worldwide. Good stuff Erik.

But I do agree with both of you that if it's for cinema/high end TV it's not so useful.

Paul

Paul,

agree with all you've said.

 

[Siva Kollipara]

if you need auto focus the RED is not the camera for you.

roryhinds, I don't think this is an appropriate statement
It sounded like a Studio Executive saying "If you don't have a father/uncle working in Hollywood, then film career is not for you?"

That's where Indy people are struggling with the attitudes.
This is what RED/we are trying to achieve, understand the roadblocks, be creative, try to overcome the obstacles. Be it FILM expenses(with RED), focus pulling hurdles(with AutoFocus). One can be a ONE man army and still produce good results.

RED has already proven nothing is impossible, why not Auto Focus.?

 

[Roberto B]

Sanjin... Are you afraid of loosing jobs as a focus puller or have you been drinking again?

got it.. ehehehehehe