The Sharpening debate

[Isaac Newcombe]

Hi all,

Just wanted to clarify something before I go into shooting this next series on Red.

So I just shot a commercial on the Red Gemini. Loved the colours, the dynamic range and even used the Pana Cube LUT to great results.

But I did have trouble pulling focus off the 7inch Pro monitor (even with peaking) and when pulling the dailies into Resolve after notice a need to sharpen slightly.

After talking with friends whom own red, it was mentioned that red does not use in camera noise reduction or in camera sharpening, so the image will look softer on the monitor than say a C300,FX9,etc

I am just curious to know everyone’s experiences with pulling focus off the red monitors and if in post do you really need to bump sharpening each time you grade red?

Regards,
I.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Pulling focus for 4K or higher deliverables, on a 1080 7" monitor, is challenging on any >4K camera I've used. Just comparing what you see on the 1:1 punch in vs scaling the full image will make that clear.

In terms of sharpening, my preference is to audition different scaling filters first, to see if I can get the sharpness level I need. Even if I don't get all the way there, it typically allows me to use less sharpening (and the potential artifacts it can create). I also like manipulating the contrast in specific ranges - lows, mids or highs depending on the material. Adding more "bite" in the darker areas, or changing the roll off up top can be a slick way to increase perceived sharpness with minimal impact on skin rendition. The artifacts of over sharpening may pass by unnoticed in many parts of an image, but a little ringing/aliasing on human skin - particularly facial blemishes - is rarely welcomed. YMMV.

Cheers - #19

 

[Michael Tiemann]

It would certainly be nice if RED's DSMC3 lineup would support end-to-end full-res focus monitoring during recording. I accept that they could not address it properly in the RED ONE or DSMC1 camera platforms, but a huge disappointment that they did not address it in DSMC2. KOMODO is a start, but has numerous other compromises.

 

[Isaac Newcombe]

The End to End focus monitoring would be a huge bonus for sure. As I am wanting to use diffusion filters but fear the challenge of focus may be even greater.

While most cameras can be a challenge to pull from, I have never had this much of an issue. Maybe I need to tighten up the focus peaking latitude. But that is great to know about adjusting contrast to add definition instead of adding sharpening which could add issues.

It’s not necessarily that I want a sharper image, I just wanted to clarify that it was not needed due to lack of in camera sharpening?

 

[Marc Wielage]

I question what monitor you're using to judge final color. Can you trust it? Is it calibrated?

We often find we have to soften material because it's too sharp. But a lot depends on the type of film and what the context and intent are. But we get quite a bit of stuff shot with ProMist filters and so on to try to soften the digital "edginess" a little bit. I don't necessarily see the need to have everything hard-edged sharp all the time.

But it is possible to selectively sharpen or soften different parts of the frame in post if there's an issue.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

FWIW I have never sharpened a single photo and I don't think that I ever will. YMMV.

 

[Simon Dunne]

Talking from a post perspective here and not live for focus pulling, sharpening can be adjusted in the debayer. I was working on one movie where the SUP (Arri) was changed mid shoot due to the introduction of a new camera. The software we were using to debayer, saw the new SUP in the metadata and assigned a new sharpening setting for the pulls. We spotted this quite quickly (always shoot charts!) but this is something that can affect the whole pipeline, so it could be hard to bake a setting into the camera for live.

 

[Mike P.]

There’s also an option to sharpen the monitor output. The r3d doesn’t have it applied, just the viewing monitor/evf (and it’s separate from peaking). Worth a shot if you’re having trouble.

 

[Marc Wielage]

FWIW I have never sharpened a single photo and I don't think that I ever will. YMMV.

It's extremely rare that we sharpen anything, but we do soften images on occasion, particularly people's faces. And we noise-reduce all the time, but only a smidge, and mainly with problematic underexposed night scenes.

 

[Brody_B]

I just wanted to clarify that it was not needed due to lack of in camera sharpening?

Not shooting on Gemini but Monstro and Helium. Sharpening in post for me is really never necessary unless there is a problem with how the footage was shot. On my last shoot one of our Cooke zooms had a back focus issue, so a handful of the close ups needed sharpening. Also sometimes when filming at 2k for the frame rates. Otherwise almost never necessary for what we shoot.

Though noise reduction is required more often.

If your not already, try using “edge” focus peaking. It helps a ton during those difficult pulling situations.