"24" quote...

[Casey Green]

Although not the case here, in the future, it will be interesting to see what unfolds politically when a DP decides to change to the RED on a show with a crew used to Film. The bonds of Camera crews are often very strong... many times resembling the relationships of a close family or perhaps more like a military unit... working alongside one another in the trenches for many years, show after show. I think it will be extremely interesting to see how this plays out when a DP of a show that has shot on film for years changes to RED. How will this be handled pertaining to his crew?

(This probably has happened a few times before with HD (sitcoms come to mind), but none that I have witnessed.)

If the general makes a decision, the soldiers under him just follow. Isn't that
what military is all about? It was like that at least when I was a soldier.
If the DP of the show wants to change the format, I don't really see any trouble
coming from the below (obviously they will need to study the new format
if they want to keep working for the DP), but I see more troubles coming
from above.

I'm not suggesting trouble necessarily - but I would think that there would be a lot of things to consider. How would the operators and assistants feel about a sudden change to new gear? There would definitely need to be some time to get familiar with all things RED. (I suppose there might be some operators that would prefer to stay with what they know.)

Also, the post workflow would change and that would require tests and different equipment. On a feature, there would be plenty of Prep time, but perhaps on an episodic show, this would be a bit more difficult to do in-between seasons.

Anyone have experience changing formats "mid stride"?

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

This basically came down to five cameras, the Arri D20, Panavision Genesis, Thompson Grass Valley Viper, DALSA Origin, and Red One.

You forgot one of the most capable systems available on the market right now: F23.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it. Even if working with tape is akin to summoning demons from a buttermilk biscuit.

 

[Cory Schulthies]

The bad news is that "24" starts shooting the next season in 10 days and we don't have enough prototypes to go around.

Jim

Actually looks like they will be starting shooting a little later this year, because fox Didnt want to pay for shooting in Africa.


http://community.tvguide.com/blog-e...g/Ausiello-Report/Exclusive-24-Plot/800018254

 

[Steven M. Bailey]

Maybe they will shoot the "24" movie that is scheduled for release in 09 on red. the Idea of bringing "24" to the big screen is fair enough, but even without the commercials, I don't think that I will be able to sit in the theater for that long.

My butt goes to sleep in the first six-eight and after that, popcorn just isn't going to cut it. I might just sit that one out.:biggrin:

 

[Phil Bates]

You forgot one of the most capable systems available on the market right now: F23.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it. Even if working with tape is akin to summoning demons from a buttermilk biscuit.

Also the Vision Research Phantom. A truly remarkable camera with a CMOS sensor. Plus, it is one of the few cameras that will not be made obsolete when RED hits critical mass, because of its ability to shoot 1000fps.

Phil
www.artbeats.com

 

[Yash Keough]

Wow that's an awesome quote! Rodney Charters is definitely one of my favorites because of his work on 24. Haven't continued watching the most recent season because I wasn't too nuts on what I saw but I've always loved the way the show was shot. Great news! Seems like all the big names using the camera have been impressed!

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Hasn't Rodney been wanting to do a piece for showreel on the RED camera for a few months now? Was he the one that performed the 35mm adapter test?

 

[Poi Boy]

Don't know about the Showreel thing but he did do the adapter test and I assume he made a whole bunch of money from his JVC endorcement. He has done a great job on 24 giving it a stand out look. I think last season he went too dark and contrasty (exposure wise) but definately a talent.
Aloha
-A

 

[Brook Willard]

This is probably the best news that I've heard in months. Rodney Charters is one of my favorite DPs and the cinematography of 24 has had a massive impact on me over the years. When I had the opportunity to chat with him briefly at NAB, I was in pig heaven. The fact that the camera has made it into that camera department's hands and this is the kind of reaction that's coming back... I can't even tell you how exciting it is for me.

Man... what I would've done to have seen it for myself.

 

[Häakon]

I agree with you completely, Brook, and his endorsement means a lot to me too. He has created amazing images with film and is extremely adept with the format, but has always remained open-minded about alternatives and publicly excited about the future of filmmaking - whatever it may be. He was indeed the one who did the 35mm adapter tests (with Taylor Wigton) for Showreel back in March of '06, which I found both very informative and thorough. I wish I could've shadowed him during his RED tests just to see his implementations and firsthand film comparison findings - there is no question we are on the cusp of a new era of cinema! What exciting times.

 

[Rocket]

Also the Vision Research Phantom. A truly remarkable camera with a CMOS sensor. Plus, it is one of the few cameras that will not be made obsolete when RED hits critical mass, because of its ability to shoot 1000fps.

Phil
www.artbeats.com

Yep, adding those to the comparison table now. Thanks.

Im.thatoneguy, the F23 is still an HD camera, maybe I'm a bit too anal about this but I don't understand why manufacturers seem to think 1920 x 1080 in a 3 x 2/3" CCD configuration will do it. Sony out of them all needs to get with the program. We should send them some of those high ISO test shots from Red just to rub it in their noses.

"The F23, which supports 4:4:4 1920 x 1080 RGB imaging, is aimed at the top-end of movie-making, commercials and television production."

If that quote from the Sony website is true and they can't even engineer the camera around a 35mm sized sensor, or at least add a few extra pixels to give us a true 2K output, where does that put Red?

It'll be on the comparison table, but it's not going to fare so well.

The Phantom on the other hand is another story, 2400 x 1800 at 480 exposures per second, 1920 x 1080 at almost 1000. I am not sure if I would include it in the comparison though as it is quite a specialized camera, it kind of falls into a different catagory.

 

[GlennChan]

They likely chose not to go with a 35mm sensor since:
- A 3 chip design with 35mm size would get impractical. Size, optics come into play.
- (supposedly) Some people have lots of 2/3" lenses that they would like to maintain

As far as not doing 2K, it's likely because HDCAM SR does not support 2K resolution. And there are advantages to recording onto HDCAM SR... it leads to a workflow that works right now. You could perhaps compare that to the Andromeda workflow... which apparently is not that good.

Of people who have used the camera, some of them are indicating that it's (becoming) their #1 choice in a camera right now (read the CML lists). We'll see if that lasts. The Red camera certainly looks like it has some big pluses going for it (e.g. nice images, very very clean / low noise / high sensitivity, viewfinder, price, 35mm DOF, 4K).

Workflow-wise it may not be as nice, though that's a toss-up. You might incur some slowdown de-bayering the footage before online, and figuring out how to move your data files around and into a compatible format. It also may not play well for facilities stuck in old-school land (old Avids that don't support the newer data formats). On the plus side (for Red), there are some downsides to tape. Log and capture kills time, having to slip stuff in online conforms kills time.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

The F23 boasts some impressive sensitivity and dynamic range itself. It has framerate ramping and is an all around excellent package. Not to mention no bayer pattern debate attached to it.

 

[Rocket]

In the end I think it all comes down to intended use and desired aesthetics. For broadcast, I would never argue a thing against HD in any way shape or form, but cinematography for theatrical projection is another story, and the whole CineAlta range was marketed as a digital cinematograpy solution.

I am sure it has a large and growing following and is many people's #1 choice, but if Jim let them all play with Red, I'm sure they would have the same reaction as Rodney Charters.

It is subjective to a certain extent, that is true, but in the end it comes down to very objective technical fact, to me that's the foundation upon which Red was engineered, that nobody had yet stepped up to the plate in creating a no-compromise digital cinematography solution (with the exception of DALSA). All the others, marketed however they may be, and accepted in the industry to whatever extent they may be, are full of crucial technical compromises if thier published purpose is to be a viable digital alternative to shooting 35mm film.

As far as workflow is concerned, just as Red has brought us an incredibly cost effective camera platform, Assimilate has brought to the table a incredibly flexible and cost effective real-time post solution for anyone wanting to conform, grade and finish thier Red 4K media from any CMX3600 EDL offline that could have come from any SD or HD capable NLE whether Avid Xpress Pro, Final Cut, or dare I say it even Adobe Premiere.

The excuses for manufacturers and end users are running out very quickly (in terms of digital cinema production... as I said, broadcast is something entirely different).

 

[Steve Gibby]

"I have had the opportunity to test the RED ONE camera over the past few weeks, including a direct comparison to the same film I shoot on "24". All I can say is that I am totally amazed. Revolutionary might not be a strong enough word to describe what RED is doing."

Rodney Charters
Cinematographer on "24"

We have opened the RED doors to Rodney and Robin for full testing without limits. I guess they were happy with the results.

Jim

IMO a very good choice...I like Rodney Charter's body of work. His strong statement about RED One is very significant...

 

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

Everytime Jim posts these great quotes, like the statement from Rodney Charters, the extra value of having an early RED grows...
Those who wish to make an extra dollar renting their REDs will probably do so very easily, as demand for RED ONE seems likely to be very high from day one, and RED will take some time to catch up.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

The F23 boasts some impressive sensitivity and dynamic range itself. It has framerate ramping and is an all around excellent package. Not to mention no bayer pattern debate attached to it.

Sure, no bayer, but also, no oversampling. That means you need optical low pass filtering, which means you're not getting 1920x1080 4:4:4 out anyway. Far better to have the proper filtering at a higher resolution, and then you're oversampling if you want to go down to 1080 or 2k.

 

[Michael Brennan]

Low pass RED

Low pass RED

Sure, no bayer, but also, no oversampling. That means you need optical low pass filtering, which means you're not getting 1920x1080 4:4:4 out anyway. Far better to have the proper filtering at a higher resolution, and then you're oversampling if you want to go down to 1080 or 2k.

(If) RED has optical low pass filter does it have similar impact on output resolution as filters on 3 chip ccd HD cameras?

In an ideal world would a selection of low pass filters adapted to particular environments (ie underwater) be usefull?


Mike Brennan

 

[Alexander Nikishin]

Rodney Charters is shooting a new outside shot with our updated DSP and sensor settings (tonight). I think we can post a shot in the next day or so. I'll ask him for permission.

Jim

Any eta on that Jim?

 

[Stephen Williams]

"The F23, which supports 4:4:4 1920 x 1080 RGB imaging, is aimed at the top-end of movie-making, commercials and television production."

The Phantom on the other hand is another story, 2400 x 1800 at 480 exposures per second, 1920 x 1080 at almost 1000. I am not sure if I would include it in the comparison though as it is quite a specialized camera, it kind of falls into a different catagory.

Hi,

I intended to use the F23 last week, until for 3 days rental with digiprimes I was quoted 25000 CHF approx $20,000. I used a Viper instead. I think the dynamic range of the F23 will be hard to beat by any camera for some time.

I testes the Phantom last month, terrible Bayer patterning & very poor dynamic range relative to a Viper.

YMMV

Stephen