Issues Tracking or Keying Red Footage?

[MiguelOrtega]

has red team or any directors working with the red tried doing any greenscreen or tracking tests using the red camera?
i know some HD cams have issues with rolling shutters that make it nearly impossible to track in bojou or matcmover etc.

has red conducted any tests on the post production side of the camera?
thanks

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

There has been greenscreen footage. It was uncompressed and very nice. However nobody has gotten any good test footage for 3D Tracking. Based on Crossing the line there is definitely a rolling shutter. The impact of that fact has not yet been measured.

There will be an independent test in LA as soon as the first cameras ship in which 3D Tracking and Keying will be a component of the testing. (see #8 Testing thread)

The specifics for the LA RED Test still aren't set in stone. Are there any specific scenarios you would like to see shot?

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

I am sure that PFTrack 4.0 will track RED footage like butter - we will be testing this as soon as we have our cameras.

 

[Brook Willard]

I pulled a one-click key on the uncompressed stills they released back in the day... It was the cleanest key I've ever done. Definitely do a search and find those stills to see for yourself.

 

[Don Woods]

Same here. One click on a compressed clip no prob. No tweek looked great. It will be the best digital soulution for keying hands down IMHO. I would beg to say it will be the best option for keying out of all the different types of devices out there.

 

[Brandon Freeman]

Based on Crossing the line there is definitely a rolling shutter.

Wait, really? That's the same effect that a V1U has when you pan really fast, right? Where the image bends? If RED does that, forget it. :sad:

 

[Kenn Christenson]

Wait, really? That's the same effect that a V1U has when you pan really fast, right? Where the image bends? If RED does that, forget it. :sad:

The thing is, we don't really know what the actual production footage is going to look like. The Peter Jackson short was shot with prototypes, after all.

I'd definitely wait to pass judgment on this camera until you see footage from an actual "production model."

 

[Brandon Freeman]

True, but this issue made me nervous about and eventually kept me away from the V1U -- so just the thought of rolling shutter on a $30k production unit makes me jitter. But, yes, I'll have to wait and see. *Fingers crossed*

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Well *every* non-global cmos sensor will have a rolling shutter. Film has a rolling shutter. It's like saying "there is noise in the image." It's obviously there, to what extent is yet to be determined.

 

[Brook Willard]

Oh, no... Not the rolling shutter debate again

 

[Petros Nousias]

Isnt it possible for the cmos to scan left to right instead of top to bottom so that the effect is more similar to film?

 

[Brook Willard]

if memory serves, Deanan mentioned that they'd come up with a pretty nice way of rolling the shutter in a film-like way (I.E. what we're used to seeing). That said, i could be completely wrong.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

One could do left to right theoretically but then we would just have a *different* problem.

 

[Alex Boothby]

Something tells me that the problem would then be 1.78 X more noticeable. :sad:

 

[Alex Boothby]

BTW: here are some example comps from David Stump's November '06 green screen tests. Start's here:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=78623&page=2

Blast from the past!

 

[ChristopherKenworthy]

impossible to track in bojou or matcmover etc.

has red conducted any tests on the post production side of the camera?
thanks

You should try Matchmover on some crappy old DV footage. It works fantastically well. If you use anything better than DV, there's nothing to worry about when it comes to Matchmover. The more info you give it, in terms of focal length and type of move, the faster it goes, but even low-res, badly shot footage can be tracked easily. The Red Footage would be easy. I might give the 1K clip a go later, and see what happens.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

if memory serves, Deanan mentioned that they'd come up with a pretty nice way of rolling the shutter in a film-like way (I.E. what we're used to seeing). That said, i could be completely wrong.

I thought I read something to that effect as well. The rolling shutter issue was definitely acknowledged and we were all told to not judge based on the fact that PJ's short was shot on prototype cameras.

 

[Jim Arthurs]

Well *every* non-global cmos sensor will have a rolling shutter. Film has a rolling shutter. It's like saying "there is noise in the image." It's obviously there, to what extent is yet to be determined.

About 50% of the film exposure is NOT sheering... it sheers at the beginning and end of the exposure... this does make for a different (and more acceptable) image to track than one that starts slewing at the top and continues all the way to the bottom as the balance of the exposure is more or less sheer proof.

As to the track-ablility of a rolling shutter... well, read this thread by the creator of Syntheyes on his recent attempt to track HV20 footage. He has no axe to grind, and does a good job of explaining how the errors can impact the ultimate tracking result...

http://cybermessageboard.fatcow.com/ssonte/viewtopic.php?t=478

Now in other forums Jim has posted that the RED's shutter is somewhere between the HV20 and film in terms of the sheer, uses a new and different method of triggering, and implies that this is something that could change in future sensor upgrades... please correct me if I'm wrong, or have incorrectly stated.

Should rolling shutter sheer amount be tested as it applies to "track-ability" by the test team? My goodness, it should be the FIRST thing tested with this camera, as it impacts the potential VFX usage in a significant way...

 

[Michael Schrengohst]

I bought one of those crappy Aiptek GO-HD cameras for my skateborder son.
It has a rolling shutter and makes any action scenes not worth a s**t.
Plus the LCD quit working....Trying to get an RMA. Steer clear.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Should rolling shutter sheer amount be tested as it applies to "track-ability" by the test team? My goodness, it should be the FIRST thing tested with this camera, as it impacts the potential VFX usage in a significant way...

It will be tested. Tracking and integration are primary on the FX test list and we'll be shooting both indoors and outdoors. Or at least that seems to be the general plan (if what we have could really be called a plan at this point).