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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Nikon 17-35mm f2.8 AFS (The one you've all been waiting for) Review

chuck colburn said:
Hi Bruce,
Something's goofy here. I understand the concept that the lens can focus pass infinity, (some cameramen like that and I use to set up lenses that would do just that) but when the lens was focused in the oppisite direction it would still hit infinity at a given point on the focus ring travel. The only thing that comes to mind is that the focus threads be they single or multi (helicoid) start have so much slop that they don't repeat when reversing direction. In which case it wouldn't matter if there was a hard stop. As I say I might be missing something, but damn if I can figure out what. lol

Chuck
Click to expand...

Chuck, I guess I'll have to rent the lens again to clear this up ;) I just rented the 17--35 for two weekends for use with 35mm adapters and HD cameras and didn't have much time to use it. But to me it seemed like the focus ring just stops working once it hits infinity, until you start turning it the other way, when it starts focusing instantly. Now you have me doubting myself. I'll be really happy if I am wrong and there is actually a consistent relationship between focus ring and focus position! Then I could use the lens! Awesome!

Evin, maybe you can help? I hope I was wrong - the first 17-35 had such a gunky focus ring that it was impossible to use, so I only had access to a decent 17-35 for one weekend. It still felt like definitely the worst lens for focus usability out of everything I have used (35mm 1.4, 50mm 1.2 & 1.4, 85mm 1.4 & 1.8, 105mm 2.0, 135mm 2.0, 180mm 2.8, 80-200 2.8 - all Nikons).

You can see 720p examples of the gunky lens (and many other lenses) here connected to Matt Garrett's Sgpro and HVX200 - I think we didn't include the rack focus test that week because it was just too horrible for words:
http://www.freshdv.com/2007/06/nikon-lens-tests-with-the-sgpro-35mm-adapter-and-hvx200.html

The next week, I got a cleaner 17-35 rental and connected it to my HV20 - that's a rack focus off of the barrel of the lens (there were difficulties connecting the RedRock follow focus to the SGpro Rev2 35mm adapter)
http://www.boacinema.com/projects/camera_tests/hv20/hv20_17_35_28_rack_test_cc_h264.mov

You can see why I am still rooting for this lens - optically it is super.

Cheers

Bruce
www.boacinema.com
 
Chuck, what Bruce is talking about is a particual feature of AFS and Ultrasonic (Canon) focusing lenses. Because they need a totally free movement for Auto focus the manual focus ring is only connected by a friction drive system. This means that although the focus ring does indeed hit a "Soft" stop when you focus to Min. distance or infinity it is possible to turn the focus ring farther than either. In fact there is no final hard stop at all, you can, if you turn hard enough, rotate the focus ring a full 360º. On my sample the friction that ocours at those "Soft" stops is substantial enough that I doubt it will pose a problem for accidential focus errors, it's certainly much better than the HVX/DVX focus where it just keeps going with no discernable variation at all. However a good set of hard stops added to the focus ring will solve the problem once and for all.
 
Chuck, it's just the way this (and a few other similarly constructed still lenses) work. It's how the "gearing" works internally with the focus ring. You turn the ring, it adjusts the focus, but once you hit one end of the focus throw, the internal gearing stops. But the focus ring on the lens barrel can continue to travel loosely, spinning infinitely for that matter. Reverse direction and no matter how far you rotated past one end of the throw, the internal focus gearing immediately turns the other way until you either reverse directions or stop at the end of the focus throw, at which time the focus ring will spin infinitely in that direction too.

So to use a lens like the Nikon 17-35 with a follow focus, you need one with hard stops or gear rings you can place on the lens that have stop tabs. With Nikon lenses, all their Silent-Wave motor based lenses work this way. The same focus ring issues are present on my 105mm AF-SED-VR Micro as well.

Edit> Whoops that will teach me to start a reply and then do something else before I come back and finish. In the mean time Bruce and Evin both got to it. Heh.
 
Evin,

You're right that the soft stop is substantial in that you can feel it when turning the focus ring. But I'm wondering how this will translate to using the lens with a follow focus. ...If it will be as noticeable or not. The very short focus throw (1/4 turn of the barrel) makes for very sensitive adjustments too.
 
OK, I get it now.
I thought the 17-35 was a full manual lens. So the passing of infinity allows the auto-focus to hunt around untill it finds infinity again without jamming up the focus motor. (I think). Makes me wonder why they even bother to put footage marks on the barrel. lol
Thanks all.
 
The footage marks are in a weird little window, I think?

So, basically, if you want to use the 17-35, you have to set the hard stop of your follow focus so that it stops just dead on or slightly before infinity, right? I mean if you stop just after infinity, then your focus marks are going to drift each time you focus past infinity, right?

Should be fine for me with my lil' HV20 + adapter. But for shooting at 4K? Maybe I am worrying about nothing though.

I must admit I'm surprised nobody has tried rehousing this lens for Cine use - it is SOO crisp, holds focus, etc. At 35mm it was leagues better than one of the old manual 35mm Nikon primes we tested.

EDIT: Evin, are you talking about putting something on the lens barrel / focus gear to stop from going too far? That would be cool and maybe cost-effective. I'd be down for a group buy if you need to get anything manufactured.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Bruce Allen said:
The footage marks are in a weird little window, I think?
Click to expand...

Yep. marks in both meters and feet in a little window. They move in step with the focus ring until either end of the focus throw is hit. Once the ring turns past the soft-stop, the marks still hold with the gearing.

I'm also surprised I haven't seen a re-housed one mentioned somewhere. This lens is awesome. It performs better than Nikons primes within the same range. I have concerns about its focus behaviors with RED, but for still photography, it's one of my favorite lenses.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
I have concerns about its focus behaviors with RED, but for still photography, it's one of my favorite lenses.
Click to expand...

Jeff, just to be clear, you are concerned only about the markings jiving with what you see in the view finder, not actually being able to get a good focus... right?
 
I bought this lens new back in March before the announcement of RED primes and the 18-50 zoom. Now I am planning to buy the RED lenses and find myself the proud owner of a very nice still lens... Not sure if I want to keep it, rent it, sell it, etc. I was thinking about getting an HV20, rr adaptor and use this as very sweet pre-viz camera prior to my RED's arrival. Anyone else have a suggestion?
 
thinkbug said:
I bought this lens new back in March before the announcement of RED primes and the 18-50 zoom. Now I am planning to buy the RED lenses and find myself the proud owner of a very nice still lens... Not sure if I want to keep it, rent it, sell it, etc. I was thinking about getting an HV20, rr adaptor and use this as very sweet pre-viz camera prior to my RED's arrival. Anyone else have a suggestion?
Click to expand...

17-35 works well with HV20 and 35mm adapter - see my above post for a video sample.

The rr adaptor has no hard stops, so it's not ideal unless we fix the hard stop problem some other way mechanically - see our above discussion.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
jaadgy akanni said:
Bruce, I don't quite understand-are you referring to the RR adapter or the RR FF?
Click to expand...
RR FF, not 35mm adapter - I am an idiot.

thinkbug said:
Thanks Bruce. So you recommend the SGPro rev2 over other adapters?
Click to expand...

Each has its own advantages and disadvantages.

The SGPro (now in Rev.3) is what I chose. It has a helluva long wait time - I ordered it a while ago and it's only coming in August. But it's easy to set up, edge-to-edge sharp and doesn't loose too much light. I want to order the PL mount - am trying to get Wayne to send me the mount to test. I'll buy it if it works but I've seen no footage so am not dumping 300 Pounds Sterling on it unless I can return it if I can't get it to work! Wayne? You listening? I've been testing your adapter for free and telling people about it! I'm sure I'll love your PL mount - just send it to me and I'll test every lens in Hollywood on it (including the Red Zoom ;)... if you want to, send Wayne an email and tell him you'll buy the PL mount version if you see good test results and maybe that will sway him.

The Brevis is available with less of a lead time, and is even brighter than the SGpro. It is the smallest and lightest of the bunch. The only problem is that most footage I've seen from it has had significant edge CA, but maybe that's because it's often tested on a Canon A1, which has CA issues. You also need specific diffusers for specific cameras, while the SGPro and RedRock diffusers seem to work well with all round. Supposedly it doesn't work so well with higher shutter speeds or a lens stopped down to f11 or so? But it's sharp, light and cool. Dennis, the guy in charge, is helpful and nice. If he sends me a PL mount version to test, maybe I will switch allegiances.

The RedRock is capable of excellent results and also available with less of a lead time. It seems seems a little more finicky to set up though. Some great-looking stuff have been shot on it - Illegal, for example. And you can get a nice package including their follow focus (which unfortunately needs hard stops for the 17-35). Plus it's often available as a rental, so you can have a spare pencilled in in case of emergency. On the negative side, in my tests it lost a stop more light. But the people behind it are responsive and cool and working on interesting things (cheap remote follow focus, Red-compatible mattebox). And I like their follow focus rings and lens supports - I'll probably buy those even though I'm going for a different 35mm adapter, and I'll be wanting a manual follow focus with hard stops.

I haven't checked out the Letus. Neither have I looked at any of the more expensive adapters. But as far as I'm concerned, if you want to go higher-end than the RedRock, Brevis or SGpro, then you are better off getting the Red.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
"RR FF, not 35mm adapter - I am an idiot."

There's only room for one idiot a day and I got there first. So just wait your turn in line.
 
Bruce Allen said:
EDIT: Evin, are you talking about putting something on the lens barrel / focus gear to stop from going too far? That would be cool and maybe cost-effective. I'd be down for a group buy if you need to get anything manufactured.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
Click to expand...

I am, and Zacuto makes this product already, but I have some custom Delrin rings I bought off E-bay so I will most likely just use some epoxy or a screw or something. I'm going to be going without for the test on Gibby's #8 though. In most circumstances this lens will be shot at f4-f8 and given it's already wide nature it's DOF will cover most problems I can forsee at 4K. It's not a perfect solution, I have always stated that, but it's a hell of a bang optically for the buck. The trade off is obvious, the question is weather or not you are willing to work around it. Eventually I will be buying the Red 18-50 CF so I only have to worry about it for the time being.
ZipGear_repeatable.jpg

http://www.zacuto.com/Zip_Gears.htm
 
Evin Grant said:
I am, and Zacuto makes this product already, but I have some custom Delrin rings I bought off E-bay so I will most likely just use some epoxy or a screw or something. I'm going to be going without for the test on the 8th though. In most circumstances this lens will be shot at f4-f8 and given it's already wide nature it's DOF will cover most problems I can forsee at 4K. It's not a perfect solution, I have always stated that, but it's a hell of a bang optically for the buck. The trade off is obvious, the question is weather or not you are willing to work around it. Eventually I will be buying the Red 18-50 CF so I only have to worry about it for the time being.
ZipGear_repeatable.jpg

http://www.zacuto.com/Zip_Gears.htm
Click to expand...

Evin, thanks for the link to the Zacutos. I have some of their stuff actually for my HV20 handheld rig ;)

Are you talking about their zip gears with stops? I looked at those but while they solve the hard stop problem, I am not sure if they will solve the short focus throw problem as well as the RedRock. I'm looking forward to seeing what you do with the E-bay Delrins and epoxy!

What test on the 8th, by the way?

Cheers

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Bruce Allen said:
Each has its own advantages and disadvantages.
The SGPro (now in Rev.3) is what I chose.
Click to expand...

Thanks for such a detailed response. :wink: Since this will be mostly a "play cam" until I get my RED in November, I am definitely going for what is cheaper and available now. Assuming I decide to keep the 17-35 and not sell it on ebay. So given the waiting list for a SGPro (Rev 3), maybe the RR is it.
 
Back on topic, Brian from RedRock confirmed in another thread that hard stops "are coming" for their follow focus. Wonder if that means a system similar to Zacuto's or not?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
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