Nikon mount question

[Paul Hazlett]

There will be a learning curve. Like Gibby Said, the workflow will change and untill you get the hang of RED, there are going to be blown shots.
So you go back to one and do it again.

 

[Michael Schrengohst]

I'd get the RED 300mm if you can afford it. It's cine glass, and my hunch is that it will be a very sharp lens - well made. The 4k footage I saw from the RED 300mm at the L.A. screening looked stellar. I've ordered one and I can't wait to test it out. Nikon lenses are excellent. I've used them since 1969 on various of my camera systems. A Nikon 300mm would undoubtedly gibve you good results on RED One, but IMO I personally don't think the results would be as good as the RED 300mm lens.

Thanks Gibby!

 

[Evin Grant]

A Nikon 300mm would undoubtedly gibve you good results on RED One, but IMO I personally don't think the results would be as good as the RED 300mm lens.

I'm not dissing the Red 300, but I seriously doubt you could tell them apart. In fact that's a compliment, the Nikon 300mm f2.8 ED is a fantastically sharp lens and the fact that the Red 300 can compare is equally impressive.
I think the decision on which to buy should be based on the mount you're standardizing on. If you plan on using the Nikon mount for most of your general shoooting then it makes more sense to buy the Nikon lens so you don't have to change the mount in order to change lenses, the same goes for the Red 300 if you're primary optics are PL mount primes or the Red 18-85.

 

[Michael Schrengohst]

Thats the $64,000 question. I already have for Nikon - 35 MM f-2,
60 MM Macro 2.8, 28-200 Af and the Tokina 12-24 I may just shoot
with those and see if the RED lenses are needed later....
I was wondering if the RED 300mm = a Nikon 300MM on coverage?

 

[Steve Gibby]

I think the decision on which to buy should be based on the mount you're standardizing on. If you plan on using the Nikon mount for most of your general shoooting then it makes more sense to buy the Nikon lens so you don't have to change the mount in order to change lenses, the same goes for the Red 300 if you're primary optics are PL mount primes or the Red 18-85.

I think you make a real good point there. A lot of people moving up to RED from the DSLR world already have quality 35mm still lenses. If they’re on a tighter budget, and can’t afford to make the move to cine lenses, a Nikon or Canon mount for RED One gives them the ability to shoot 4k on down footage. If someone isn’t moving over from the DSLR world, but can only budget out enough funds to buy a basic RED One system and some affordable lenses, then the 35mm still lens option gets them in the game. From the very start RED recognized that and decided to make RED One as flexible as possible. – thus the 35mm still mount options were announced at the very beginning of RED.

I think someone approaching adoption of RED One needs to ask themselves: What are my production goals with this camera? What genres and styles do I need to shoot? What equipment options will fit in my budget and still get me to my goals?

If someone already has a lot of PL mount cine lenses, and accessories for them, RED comes stock with a PL mount, so It makes obvious fiscal sense to stick with PL.

If someone owns no lenses, but is very experienced, has a big budget for lenses, their goals are mostly high-end cine-style production, especially narrative cinema, then I think they’d be wise to invest in cine lenses rather than 35mm still lenses.

Guys like me that do a wide range of cine-style and EFP style productions, and also have a still photography background, naturally want every lens on the planet! In a perfect world we’d be able to afford to buy them all. Unfortunately that’s an impossibility, so our approach will be one of “the right car for the track”. I own a fairly good collection of cine, EFP/ENG, and 35mm still lenses. For each project with RED One I’ll sit back and ask myself “Hmmm…which lens and accessory setup makes the most sense for this project?” then set the camera up that way. If I don’t have the right lens, I’ll rent it for that project.

I think the PL mount cine lens options for RED One are fairly broad right now, and will only increase looking forward. Most cine lenses are monstrously expensive. Obviously RED is out to change that paradigm by offering what they say will be quality cine lenses at real good prices. I hope they expand their lens offerings.

Any comparison of the RED 300mm and the Nikkor 300mm will have to wait until both can be tested on a RED One camera. Even then, as usual, a lot of the judgment will necessarily be subjective. Lens tests have to be objective to a certain point to quantify the tech, beyond that lays the realm of subjectivity. There will be design parameters of the RED 300mm that specifically enable cine-style production – that’s what it’s designed for. The Nikon 300mm was designed for 35mm still photography, but can be well adapted for cine-style work. I'll be one of the very first guys to test a RED 300mm lens on a RED One camera - very shortly on RED #8. When I do, I'll post my impressions on this forum. I expect the lens to be real good...

It’s the options and flexibility that attracted me to RED One. As a shooter I just want to use the best lens for the job at hand. I love all good lenses…I’m a glassaholic!

 

[Michael Schrengohst]

That's the problem, so am I.
I will have to call RED HQ and see if I can apply
my lens deposits to the camera instead.
I may hold off on the RED lenses as I still do
a fair amount of still work....
But if the RED can be adapted for still work
I may think that way as well....

 

[Evin Grant]

I was wondering if the RED 300mm = a Nikon 300MM on coverage?

Yes, the coverage would be identical.

My plan is to own a very comprehensive Nikon lens selection and offer the PL mount primes and Red lenses as an additional option for my higher end clients. Eventually I'll purchase a prime set (Hopefully a Red prime set) for PL myself, but I have access to a Super speed set for the time being if necessary.

 

[Joel Kaye]

Any comparison of the RED 300mm and the Nikkor 300mm will have to wait until both can be tested on a RED One camera.…I’m a glassaholic!

I think the fascinating thing is going to be side by side tests of Nikkor vs. Cine lenses projected at 2k. Obviously breathing will be an issue to be tested.

But this review put a spendy Zeiss up against much less expensive alternatives and you can't see much difference between most of them
http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/50-comparison/index.htm

So it'll be very interesting to see these guys go against $50k lenses.

 

[chuck colburn]

Yes, the coverage would be identical.

My plan is to own a very comprehensive Nikon lens selection and offer the PL mount primes and Red lenses as an additional option for my higher end clients. Eventually I'll purchase a prime set (Hopefully a Red prime set) for PL myself, but I have access to a Super speed set for the time being if necessary.

Hello Evin,

I'm not sure I follow you on that. If the RED 300 lens is designed for the RED camera format ( 1.85 ) then wouldn't the Nikor 300 be an eqvuilant of a 480mm due to the 1.6x (appx.) factor?

Chuck

 

[Michael Schrengohst]

? Thats what I was wondering? Wouldn't a Nikon 180MM more or less be closer to the RED 300MM?

 

[Joel Kaye]

? Thats what I was wondering? Wouldn't a Nikon 180MM more or less be closer to the RED 300MM?

And won't you be grabbing the sweet spot of that 180mm lens? Oh the tests are going to be so interesting...

 

[Evin Grant]

300mm is 300mm no matter what format your shooting on.
In 35mm still terms the both lenses will be equivelent to 489mm.

 

[Joel Kaye]

300mm is 300mm no matter what format your shooting on.
In 35mm still terms the both lenses will be equivelent to 489mm.

Oh yeah - that makes sense. Thanks for clarifying. That's a monster zoom. I'm not sure that needs to be in my bag for most of what I'll be doing.

 

[Michael Schrengohst]

OK, that makes sense....
Evin, looks like the lens testing will never end???....
Thanks

 

[planet e]

i'm with you, gibby. i have the sickest collection of lenses. sadly, they are canon EF mount, i got bit hard when i bought an XL2 with an EF adapter, which means i either have to switch everything over to nikon or sell them to pay for some of these RED goodies. my specialty lenses include the legendary 200mm f/1.8. i hate to give that lens up. it's big bad and beautiful and the sharpest lens i own. heavy, though. not terribly practical.

we need a chapter of Glassoholics Anonymous....so that when i decide i can't live another moment without that sigma 200-500mm 2.8, someone can talk me down....

 

[Michael Brennan]

OK...then how about this:


I don't think you need live 4k monitoring to achieve effective WYSIWYG monitoring of parameters like framing and focus - 1080p and 720p will do just fine. If you're waiting for affordable, mobile, live 4k monitoring in order to trust in a WYSIWYG acquisition environment, then you're in for a long wait.

Lower res dispalys are fine for judging framing edges but do not reveal fine detail within the frame that could be troublesome. ie finger prints on product pack shots.

Anything but one to one pixel monitoring of focus for 4k or HD is not fine, it is a compromise and the term WYSIWYG is far from appropriate in my view.

Look at the number of soft shots on HD docs that are acquired on 2/3 inch systems with compromised viewfinders. Red will have less depth of field and higher res!

One to one button is handy but not wysisyg more like 1/3 wysiwyg.
Focus in the field (without focus puller) for run and gun with 2/3 inch HD is very difficult as it is. Acquiring with less depth of field for large screen delivery will require new level of focusing skills, even if new viewfinder is 1280x720 pixels which is average res for current 2/3 cameras.

Large screen displays be it cinema screen or +42 inch panels are a serious challenge for self pullers!

Better to be circumspect about what you can promise clients rahter than mislead them with WYSIWYG term. When I shoot 1920x1080 HD without a focus puller and the subject to camera distance is changing during the shot I do not gaurantee focus without a full res monitor for verification.

Apparent depth of field (ie as it appears on screen) is narrower the higher the resolution of the display (up to the native res of the recording).
1:1 display will be usefull for judging 4K depth of field on projects for large screen display.

None of the above is a deal breaker if you approach with caution and good communication with client.


Mike

 

[Joel Kaye]

Anything but one to one pixel monitoring of focus for 4k or HD is not fine

Remember that Graeme has invented a new focusing system that none of us have seen yet. Until you see that I think the word "anything" in your above statement is premature.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Canon EF mount

Canon EF mount

From what I understand the guys at Birger engineering already have a mount for the EF AND EF-S lenses that allows control of iris, focus, (and maybe zoom) and are just waiting for final specs on the front end of the RED to make a RED specific mount for it.

i have the sickest collection of lenses. sadly, they are canon EF mount, i got bit hard when i bought an XL2 with an EF adapter, which means i either have to switch everything over to nikon or sell them to pay for some of these RED goodies. my specialty lenses include the legendary 200mm f/1.8. i hate to give that lens up. it's big bad and beautiful and the sharpest lens i own. heavy, though. not terribly practical.

we need a chapter of Glassoholics Anonymous....so that when i decide i can't live another moment without that sigma 200-500mm 2.8, someone can talk me down....

 

[Steve Gibby]

Mickjoebill,

I think you made some valid points...for 35mm narrative cinema work destined for the big screen. Features and narrative cinema productions get a lot of press, but the fact is that the vast majority of pro-level productions worldwide are non-hardlined EFP productions that are not destined for the big screen. I believe that non-hardlined EFP productions will be the vast majority of projects that RED One will be used for. RED One is designed with the flexibility to be a cine-style and an EFP style camera system, depending on the format chosen, lenses, and accessories used.

Drilling deeper into EFP production, the majority of EFP productions are non-hardlined EFP, with small crews, that are largely shot outdoors (sports, travel, nature, etc.) in available light at exposure levels between f5.6 and f11. Shallow DOF is only sought for specialty shots, with medium to deep DOF being the norm. A focus puller is not need or wanted - operators rack their own focus. A 720p EVF or LCD, with an effective focus assist utility, should be very effective in this style of shooting – effectively WYSIWYG. Even if these EFP projects are being shot in 4k REDCODE RAW, with S35mm lenses, the higher light levels should enable f5.6 to f11 apertures for the medium to deep DOF that is sought, and the 720p EVF and LCD plus focus assist should easily enable operator racking of focus.

IMO, with the vast majority of productions being non-hardlined EFP, not destined for the big screen, but in fact destined for a maximum of 1080p distribution (BluRay, HD-DVD) or 1080i/720p HDTV distribution, and the numerical majority of RED One projects being that genre, the 1080p or 720p live monitoring of RED One is WYSIWYG in my book. For clarification, RED isn’t saying WYSIWYG…I am saying it.

I work in both cine-style and EFP style workflows. I can appreciate what you’re saying about narrative cinema critical focus when seeking shallow DOF…with actors hitting various marks. It’s a definite set of challenges and monitoring for critical focus becomes very important. I think we should reserve judgment on RED’s capability in that workflow until the camera is tested via 1080p and 720p monitoring, and the RED focus assist, which RED has said will be very effective, can be tested.

If someone can’t live with 1080p or 720p monitoring of their 4k project, and is determined to have realtime 4k monitoring of those projects, then I guess they will have to wait a few years for 4k monitors to be available/affordable/mobile, and for cameras that enable live 4k monitoring.

 

[Michael Brennan]

Mickjoebill,

I can appreciate what you’re saying about narrative cinema critical focus when seeking shallow DOF…with actors hitting various marks. It’s a definite set of challenges and monitoring for critical focus becomes very important. I think we should reserve judgment on RED’s capability in that workflow until the camera is tested via 1080p and 720p monitoring, and the RED focus assist, which RED has said will be very effective, can be tested.
.

And what is the difference in an actor hitting a mark and a doc cameraman grabing a shot or trying to pull focus on a subject that he has no control over? The doc cameraman has a harder time of it on 2/3 inch HD whereas the drama gig has marks and hopefully a focus puller.
Now shoot the doc 4k on Red, reduce the doc camermans depth of field as well as screen the material on a large screen and focus is hairy.

I am not critising RED focus assist but as it is unlikely to deliver 1080p res and well short of 4k.

The underlining point is that it is down to the camera operator to pull focus on moving subjects and this is more difficult with 35mm depth of field than 2/3 inch even when using a 24 inch monitor. Sure you can see more clearly on a big monitor or maybe Red Focus assist, if it is soft or not, but it is too late by then. The skill required to twidle the barrell as well as pan and tilt is not available in everyones armoury or should that be "fingeroury"

DoF 50mm lens 27 deg on Red at f2 at 10ft is 14 inches
DoF 20mm lens 27 deg on HD at f2 at 10ft is 7ft (source Panavision)


Not such an issue with SD transmission but for HD delivery the audience see more res than the camera operator! so making slight focus corrections that are unseen on SD are more obvious on HD.


Sure give it a go, and explore new genres and techniques, I will! but the director or client should be aware that if camera or subject distance is altering the shot could be soft.



Mike