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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Aha says the tick tock man, time to deliver to the client!

T

tj williams

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So I fire up the RED on a job for an outa town producer. I record 1080P 24 on the RED Digital Magazine. During lunch I download the first two mags to the PC and at the end of the day the second 2. I typically shoot 1.5 to 2.5 hrs per day.

Just for math ease lets say I've shot 1 hour of footage.

NOw I need to render this out into a format for delivery for online in final cut
ie the Panasonic HD 1080 Format. (will others be different rendering times?)

Of course everything is in flux. but given a vanilla duo with a gig type typical machine. And for those of us who are less than computer experts. I'm not looking for some exact answer just trying to see in the RED will enable me to deliver the client in a timely way.... ie before the end of fedex that night.

A. Will I be able to render this out in near real time?
B. Will my 1 hour of footage take 8 hours to render?
C. Will I be done in 10 minutes.
D. What will be the difference between this and other possible codec outputs?
 
I am hoping that you just turn the footage over to the client in Redcode form and it is they who use the Red Cine software to convert it however they want.

I would hope that the Red Cine software is available to everyone at a cheap price. I would think it would be to Red's benefit to make it that way to help make the workflow accesible to everyone in order to sell more cameras.

As far as your question goes, it is going to be a really tight fit to get it all processed and FedEx'd to them the next day. They might have to wait an additional day. Assuming they don't mind waiting.
 
This point is something I bought up before the reservations opened up.
To hedge my bet I have reserved a camera and hope now that the software will be very expensive to purchase!
 
Or you can always just charge for the processing and that is just part of your rate.. I don't think RED CINE should be over priced but I don't think it should be free. Now the codec that could be something that would be helpfull. But as stated before that is for recoding not an actuall formatt... So who nows how the market are going to go.
 
Personally, I plan to deliver footage on an external hard drive in their format of choice, having processed it through REDCINE myself after the shoot.

In my experience, most out-of-town producers who hire DPs or own/ops rent a deck when they get home ($300-500/day) -- so if they can connect the hard drive straight into their NLE without having to sit and capture tapes (read: no logging labor/"editor doing busy work" cost), they'll not have any problem trading the cost of renting a deck for the cost of buying an external hard drive and paying you a little extra to process footage (and they have a nice digital backup of their footage to stick in a closet).
 
how to deliver?

how to deliver?

Jim, I'm afraid most of my clients will not have RED CODE. Maybe jim is ready to give out free seats like quick time player, but I've not heard this. Also my clients probably are not ready to learn new software. They already have a codec they use. I'm their freelance employee and I need to fit into their working system.

IMG, Certainly I will set my rates to include my processing just as I now make money selling tapes, and include the fedex delivery in my day.

Wade, What you propose is just about what I intend to do also. Most of my clientele either own an HD deck (Sony/Panasonic) or use a post facility that owns them. Therefore I want to get my footage ready to import into their systems by the most expeditious (to them) means. because they usually own the deck, which is for them a sunk cost. I figure on charging a use fee for the disk drive similiar to the cost of HD tapes. I don't feel I can charge more as this would tend to make me uncompetitive with shooters who use HD tape cameras.

Which brings me to the heart of my original question:

A. Will I be able to render this out in near real time?
B. Will my 1 hour of footage take 8 hours to render?
C. Will I be done in 10 minutes.
D. What will be the difference between codecs ie files that look to the editor
on an external hard drive, like: Panasonic/Sony/jvc tapes. or easy to use
and common files which will intercut on their systems as perhaps DPX etc.

Looking for the computer guru here!!!
Thanks TJ
 
some answers

some answers

Quite aside from the rendering time to get my output into a codec which the post house can accept I've come upon another small problem.

A very nice man on the cow forum gives me these numbers for distributing my days shooting to my client on hard drives using DPX files. DPX according to him is widely acceptable by post systems, uncompressed, 444color. He says 1080 24P is about 8.5 megs a frame and 720 24P is about 3.7 megs per frame. Red Cine does output this.

At the end of the day I shoot and deliver on a portable hard drive. Usually we shoot about 5 HD tapes a day average. 40min ea or about 200 minutes.

So(someone check this math!:)

8.5 X 24fps=204 X60sec=12.24Gig per min X 200minutes=2448.0gigs
3.7 X 24fps=88.8X60sec=5.328Gig per min X 200minutes=1065.6Gigs

So now I'm lookin for a 3000Gig portable hard drive to loan out?????
(gotta go long some days, and of course drive overhead)

THIS NEEDS A CODE WIZARD!!!!!

Hey basically this won't work. what should I do???
Is there a chance that you will free distribute a RED player so I can just send the stuff in RED Code as suggested by Jim above!!!
 
I think it would be really good if REDcine was free. It would make it a lot easier to process footage if you just rented the camera, or in a situation like the one above.

Just my $0.02
 
I believe the Redcode codec will be freely available (someone from Red correct me if I'm wrong) Redcine is another matter, although it will have unlimited seats when it comes with Red, so maybe you could include it with the drive? If that dosen't violate the licencing agreement. All in all it makes little sense to charge, or at least charge much for Redcine, after all it really just makes shooting (and selling) Red that much easier for the producers.
 
I know I keep saying this, but I really think the situation is no different to what we have currently with tape. Production conpanies have no problem with being handed a box of tapes at the end of a shoot, even though very few have an HDCam or even Digi Beta player in their production offices. They need to rent one in or get it transferred to something they can play. Handing over a drive full of REDCODE rushes would be just the same. In fact the parallel also works for film.

I have no issue with REDCODE being a format you need to buy a 'player' for, just like any other.
 
The codec will do RAW to RGB processing as well. No need to ask what you can influence or how it exactly will work since that's still in development.
 
Evin, Stephen:
I totally agree! The ability to play out red code files and transform only what is needed, to their own codec, by my clients, editor is going to be crucial to my business plan with the camera. For this to happen RED playback will have to be available to my clients for free.(see 3 below) It will be important that the RED Playback my clients have will present them with a list of clips to easily choose the circled takes.

Looking at these render times and the size of the resultant files I don't see how I can deliver in any other way. certainly DPX is not an option. Maybe I'm missing somthing here?

Nick,
I don't know anything about your clients. I have been a freelance camera person for over 25 years. I've worked for local companies and for international companies, and for various networks and producers. I know a lot of other people who have the same type of experience. I'm unaware of any current client who is shooting to edit on a system which does not have an input deck in the format they use. Check with Bexel on the number of studio decks they rent as opposed to camera packages! What you are talking about is damned uncommon. To these people the deck is a fixed cost. If it costs them more to ingest RED output, or if it takes more time, they will find someone else or I will rent the camera they prefer. Thats just the simple truth of my life. Now that said, I forsee that we will be data centric, with hard drive, card, or perhaps even internet delivery at some time in the future. I however need to continue to make a living in the immediate future.

Quote: Rod
The codec will do RAW to RGB processing as well. No need to ask what you can influence or how it exactly will work since that's still in development.
__________________
Code Chef @ RED
www.RED.com

Rod: I'm not sure I understand your post pasted above?

What I'm doing by spending my time posting here is exactly trying to influence you (RED Development) to create a workflow for freelance camerapersons like myself we represent a sizeable portion of the RED business. I'm certainly not asking exactly how it works! Probably I wouldn't understand if you told me.... What I'm doing is as clearly as I can telling you about the typical work flow for freelance camerapersons and suggesting to you that it is strongly in the RED companies interest to address these problems.

The questions I think are raised here are:

1. Will it be necessary for me to render my (Raw/RBG?)(720/1080) HD output from the camera's digital mags, to deliver editible HD data to my client?

A. If I must render the mags output: In a general way what will my render times be like?

2. Given the high gig numbers to send DPX What other delivery options will we have that are widely accepted?

A. Are you saying above that RGB is widely accepted by editors and takes no more disk room than raw and and is quickly rendered? Will RGB work as #3 below?

B. Will there be a way to load RED raw files onto a portable disk and send them to the client, in such a way that they will be able to download into their own codec (render?) only those takes they desire.

3. Panasonic/Sony/jvc tapes in HD are currently well accepted. Most of my clients have decks for one or more format, which represent a fixed cost. What plans do you have to make it as easy to download red files into their machines in a way that will intercut with other footage shot elswhere on tape. not more difficult or time consuming than loading from tape.
 
I have been asking these questions for a few months. I think the RED team will keep gathering info before any policy & procedures are announced. On one hand it would be great to have everything available for free. On the other hand RED has always said that the RED camera owners will get REDCINE as part of the package. Thus I assume REDCINE will be a packaged piece of software available for purchase by non-RED owners soon after the RED starts shipping???
 
I can't answer such questions, that's for Jim.
 
tj williams said:
Nick,
I don't know anything about your clients. I have been a freelance camera person for over 25 years. I've worked for local companies and for international companies, and for various networks and producers. I know a lot of other people who have the same type of experience. I'm unaware of any current client who is shooting to edit on a system which does not have an input deck in the format they use. Check with Bexel on the number of studio decks they rent as opposed to camera packages! What you are talking about is damned uncommon. To these people the deck is a fixed cost. If it costs them more to ingest RED output, or if it takes more time, they will find someone else or I will rent the camera they prefer. Thats just the simple truth of my life. Now that said, I forsee that we will be data centric, with hard drive, card, or perhaps even internet delivery at some time in the future. I however need to continue to make a living in the immediate future.
Click to expand...

Obviously I don't know anything about who your clients are either. I run a post production facility, and therefore it is my responsibility to decide what decks I own, and if I don't own one for a particular format I rent one for any job that requires it.

I was talking about production companies, and as far as I'm aware few, if any, of the production companies I work for (and they include some very major UK corporate and commercial production companies) own more than maybe a Beta SP deck. Most just have VHS and DVD for viewing BITC transfers of rushes, and offline edits.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "I'm unaware of any current client who is shooting to edit on a system which does not have an input deck in the format they use". Production companies in my experience rarely own their own editing systems. They use post production facilities who can handle the format they have shot on. If they have shot film, they will often go to a lab and TK facility that is separate from the post house, and send Beta SP one-lights for the offline.

Therefore post houses will need to buy REDCINE and REDCODE licenses, but as I see it, production companies will not. As an editor, and future RED owner, I hope to be in a priviledged position in the early days, as it is certainly true that many of the big facilities will not necessarily be able to handle RED footage in it's original format from the outset. If RED is the success we all hope it will be, post houses will all need to buy REDCINE licenses in the same way as they would need to buy decks for any new format. In the short term, maybe there is money to be made by people offering a bureau service, transcoding REDCODE to other formats.

Is there an issue with REDCINE being a fixed cost to those who need it, just like a deck? Whatever RED might charge for REDCINE licenses to non camera owners, I would not imagine it would be in the same league as a deck.

Sorry if I rubbed anyone up the wrong way. It was certainly not my intention to do so.

Nick
 
Hi Nick.

Hi Nick.

Hi Nick

I hope I haven't rubbed you wrong either.

Things in the UK may be very different from here. West coast US.

I quite agree that there are many production companies who only have dv, vhs, They use these on offline systems and will usually receive the downconverted window burn etc. from their post house.

Sorry to be unclear by "edit on a system" I mean that production companies who are finishing an HD project usually go to the larger post houses who all have HDCam and Varicam studio decks at a minimum. Maybe different there?

"Regarding your conclusion "therefore post houses" etc.) I think that is my whole point. How many Varicams and F900s do you think are out there?
Initially there will only be a small number of REDs. Therefore if my clients post house is not interested in buying RED software. My client will say to me shoot on HDCam or Varicam. Then my investment in RED will sit on a shelf while I pay a rental!

I agree with you that it won't cost the 60 80K of a studio deck for HD tape.
That said, if you want 1 seat for the software that runs with the Silicon Imaging camera you will pay about $2000US

As Freelance Shooters we have a problem using the RED:

We are trying to introduce a more data centric work flow. selling our RED cameras against a proven technology from Panasonic and Sony who are heavy hitters in broadcast.

Many producers are unfamiliar with this technology but have plenty of experience with HDCam and or Varicam. People are hard to jar off what they are familiar with, whether its better or not, it still looks very good.

Selling this change to my clients is difficult enough, the last thing on earth I want is another road block to selling a day on my RED Camera.

Free Distribution of a player converter on the model of Windows MEdia Player or Quicktime, will be a lot of help to early owners. Since it will enable sending RAW disks home with the client. It will also make the RED much more acceptable to Producers, since almost every post house will have access to downloading the software.

In your market where appearently many post house with systems that can handle HD data don't have Sony or Panasonic decks, the producers/post houses, may prefer RED RAW/RGB data. Since they won't need to rent a deck and will save money.

Of course we can share our software with the post house unless that is restricted by licensing. It's better if they already have it from the standpoint of selling them on shooting with the RED.

Possibly a better solution: RED Could provide post houses a download of a basic player of RAW/RGB and a converter to several comon HD/SD formats, then sell upgrades to more full featured packages. This has worked well for a number of software companies? Upgrades such as color grading in RAW etc. should be hot sellers and give our cameras an advantage over compressed, lower color space, HD tape formats.
 
tj-

You bring up excellent points. As working cameramen we have to deliver footage our clients can USE and it's been hard to understand even roughly how long it will take to de-Bayer/render/resize/output from Redcine if that responsibility falls on us. I understand there's many variables such as capture rez/codec and system performance, but I still can't answer that question as I'm going around trying to pre-sell jobs for my RED....

Perhaps someone from RED could let us know the details of the demo footage that's been screened - render times, system used, etc etc

It would be nice to hand off hard drives of the camera original files and be done, just like handing off tapes or rolls of film... but I suspect there will be a lot of encoding to QuickTimes happening onset, especially for smaller clients.

But you are right, sir - a downloadable player/file converter would be an excellent excellent way to make this codec sweep the market.
 
There are a number of options as far as client delivery, as I understand it.

REDCODE will take some time to process footage; but think about the time that's required to log the tapes -- it's not insignificant. I've more than once had to hire round the clock PA's to log for my own HD projects (and we're talking corporate video and commercials, not long-run features -- I do TV work in SD, and its about the same). Personally, I'm exited at the prospect (as a DP) to actually control the one-light myself (i.e. REDCODE) before it gets shipped to the production house.

Additionally, a lot of the usual "broadcast quality" tape formats (DVCPRO HD, HDCAM) are not 444 uncompressed. DVCPRO HD is, in fact, a rather compressed format -- I've got
600 minutes of 720p60 (meant for SD 480i out after Shake compositing -- so I wanted one progressive frame for each interlaced field to avoid issues in the composite -- most of you will agree that it's excessive, but I'm a quality nut) and that whole 600 minutes (20 tapes) captured to about 386gig... easily managable. (I would also like to mention that the original tapes plus the client delivery tapes cost me around 240$ when all was said and done -- well within the range of an appropriate drive)

tj williams said:
Quite aside from the rendering time to get my output into a codec which the post house can accept I've come upon another small problem.

A very nice man on the cow forum gives me these numbers for distributing my days shooting to my client on hard drives using DPX files. DPX according to him is widely acceptable by post systems, uncompressed, 444color. He says 1080 24P is about 8.5 megs a frame and 720 24P is about 3.7 megs per frame. Red Cine does output this.

At the end of the day I shoot and deliver on a portable hard drive. Usually we shoot about 5 HD tapes a day average. 40min ea or about 200 minutes.
Click to expand...

DPX is nice and all; but it's the open source variation of the format Kodak invented for digital film scans for a DI process-- and not something you'd normally use for "owner/operator" type jobs, unless you're doing something 2k or 4k for film-out. That's why the post houses that work with 2k/4k DI have truly massive storage rooms with 10-20 terabytes live. Additionally, DPX doesn't include audio. ;)

It is, however, a great format to use for post on the DCI spec... so none of this applies to 2k/4k meant for digital cinema... and a great format to use for VFX compositing work.

more info at wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DPX

Ultimately, you've got to remember that this kind of quality (whether you're talking 4k or 1080p24@4.4.4) has never really been within the reach of most of us without a SIGNIFICANT rental cost. Your clients will be happy with any of the NLE formats that REDCODE will be able to deliver -- and if indeed they want to do it really high end, then I'm willing to bet they won't scoff at paying a nice high-end post house to do the finishing on a Scratch workstation or something similar (which, btw, Scratch does understand REDCODE native) in which case you can arrange to borrow one of their drives (every post house I know of has large external firewire raids for that purpose) -- but in that case they'll expect you to provide low-res proxies for the actual edit (offline)... so you're back to the small portable external hd.

TJ, to answer your question 2 (i'm not qualified to answer 1/A, clearly) I would suggest that if you would rather not deal with digital formats (I understand your frustration, as there are various codecs for each Kona, Blackmagic, Final Cut, Avid, Mac, PC) -- then i'd suggest renting a deck either on set (to hook up HD-SDI dual-link 4:4:4 for on-set recording in a studio) or afterwards and delivering on tape, if you really think its nessasary... but to be perfectly honest, it's not that hard to find a codec on a client-by-client basis that will work on your system and theirs. FCP's DVCPRO HD (SMPTE 370M), Avid's DNxHD, Adobe/Cineform ProspectHD or a similar NLE specific codec would be great. Worse comes to worse, you can bring your copy of REDCODE on a laptop and xfer the files as you process them (as you'll most likely change settings on a take by take basis anyway)

The other thing you've got to remember is that the main benefit of shooting RAW is that you have the control LATER, and by this I mean you can make exposure corrections, color balance, etc when you're done with the shoot. Anyone with a digital SLR will tell you that RAW is leagues different from shooting in JPG -- why? because you can choose later where and how the values fit into your color gamut. NTSC has an exposure range of roughly 5.5 stops, and Jim has said that one of the prototype cameras demonstrated a possible range of almost 11 (which, if i'm not mistaken, closely approaches that of motion picture film) -- the purpose of a telecine in film production is to compress those 11 stops into tv's 5.5 -- this isn't a problem with video, because it's 5.5 to begin with -- which is why skys in video often turn white, and why you can't use a viewfinder to accurately calibrate an iris -- you really need a production field monitor and an engineer with a vectorscope to do it perfectly as most of you are aware. (sorry for preaching to the choir) Ultimately, as a DP, you ought to be the one making exposure considerations, not the producer -- it's really worthwhile for you to be the one doing the telecine.... I mean REDCINE... :)

It is a little weird and takes some getting used to for people used to shooting video... ultimately, this is a merging of video and film, and uses a workflow that's a lot more similar to film than video... but the quality of the camera is more comparable to film than any camera that has ever existed. It's made for the techies and the early adopters that are willing to trade some uncertainty and a hiccup here and there for something really special.

Finally, it's my understanding that REDCODE is about half of "The RED Revolution" -- it's a hell of a technical feat to make a 4k camera, but it's also a hell of a technical feat to make the means by which that much data (in excess of 275,539,200 pixels per second) can be processed in real-time inside the camera, to come out of the camera in a usable data rate thats compatable with mainstream computers (and not just room-sized supercomputers) -- and not have the camera cost several fortunes. In explaining it to an audio post friend, we ended up likening it to draining a 35,000 gallon pool with 1/4in PVC pipe --- it doesn't work very well, unless you've got a heck of a pump (REDCODE, to extend the metaphor too far). I wouldn't give away such a pump for free to just anyone. (ok, the metaphor is dead)

Anyway, cheers to the RED team for all their hard work, and feel free (especially those with red names) to correct anything I've misrepresented or misunderstood.
 
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