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Flash Incompatibility

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Finner

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I do not believe this has been touched on yet.

I just wanted to confirm that RED was making a flash port that did not just accept "Red" brand flash memory cards. I have always figured that red would accept SanDisk and other memory company's products.

Panasonic made this mistake with the P2 cards and the camera has not taken off as well as it could of if it just took standard flash memory.

Can anyone tell me if the RED is planned to accept flash cards from outside memory companys?
 
Since I know, Panasonic has offered the technology to other manufacturers of SD cards. There are plans from other companies to sell P2 cards, but I think it's a slow process, since it's still a small market.
 
polispol said:
it's a slow process, since it's still a small market.
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And that's what most people forget. We're so involved in the this particular market that we forget how small it is in the grand scheme of video recorders.
 
We are a very small market when you think how big the consumer electronic market is. I beleav the plan was to utilze memorey that was already on the market. But I could be wrong. Either way it is still an interesting option for recording media
 
We are indeed a very small market. All the more reason why RED should make their FLASH module use standard media. If it can take 4 SD or CF style media cards and interleave them (think RAID 0 stripe), it should work rather well. And we should see 32GB and larger CF style media becoming common by the end of this year. I originally wrote a huge post here about my detailed point of view on Panasonic's P2 and why it is evil, but I moved it to the off-topic section.
 
The film camera companys have things right in this area. They concentrate on making great cameras and improving them and leave the media capture to kodak and fuji.

If Red leaves the media capture to the computer memory companys things will be so much better. We can just go to any local computer store and be able to buy the newest largest fastest best priced flash cards when ever we want or even to have quick ability to replace a card if one goes bad. This way RED can just concentrate on the next new RED improvement and stay ahead of everybody else.
 
At a seminar, A Panasonic spokesperson said that their tolerances for their flash chips were like 1% or some horrific number. So that they had to choose the top 1% of Flash chips that had little to no errors in order to make their 'perfect' P2 flash cards and that is why they cost so much.

I still wonder to this day, does that mean average flash cards had a lot of drop out? Considering 4k and drop out - lost pixels would be a big deal - unless there is error correcting, etc to compensate for that. Anyway, that is what I was told. If the RED crew could address us, that would be great.
 
Greg Voevodsky said:
At a seminar, A Panasonic spokesperson said that their tolerances for their flash chips were like 1% or some horrific number. So that they had to choose the top 1% of Flash chips that had little to no errors in order to make their 'perfect' P2 flash cards and that is why they cost so much.

I still wonder to this day, does that mean average flash cards had a lot of drop out? Considering 4k and drop out - lost pixels would be a big deal - unless there is error correcting, etc to compensate for that. Anyway, that is what I was told. If the RED crew could address us, that would be great.
Click to expand...

This sounds like panasonic B.S. to me. They use a Fire hard drive right. Is that then as 1% top hard drive system? Panasonics flash excuse sounds weak to me. If there is someone that is extremely flash savy it would be good to get your input. I just don't personally buy the super flash argument, we all know flash is faster and more durable then hard drives so it just doesn't make sense that if you needed the top 1% flash chips how on earth could you build a hard drive that works.
 
While errors are a concern... speed is the biggest. The guaranteed minimum write speed has to be greater than 30+MB per second (not just advertised). Speed and reliability are mandatory. If we open to a standard format, say Compact Flash, and someone buys an 8GB card that doesn't work because the write speed is too slow... is it our fault? This is a difficult decision for us. We want an open system. But we also don't want unhappy customers. Two years from now there will be lots of great options. But right now, the options are few.

The good news is that we have the capability to change our flash drive in the future if something great, and open, comes along. Modularity is a good thing.

Jim
 
I can totally see your point Jim.

High performance cars have the "premium unleaded only" on the gas cap to warn customers. I feel the users of RED will be very tech savy and I think a requirement disclaimer beside the flash port would be enough of a warning.

The ability for RED owners to use high quality 30+ flash straight off the local store shelves would be a huge advantage. i know this may cut you guys out of a few profits but I really do feel in the end the ability for you guys to focus strictly on the camera and leave the flash to memory companys would benifit red in the long run.
 
Finner said:
I can totally see your point Jim.

High performance cars have the "premium unleaded only" on the gas cap to warn customers. I feel the users of RED will be very tech savy and I think a requirement disclaimer beside the flash port would be enough of a warning.
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there is the problem.. i know many, many people with luxury cars that ask for premium gas but the owner puts mid or low grade octane in... Its like cheap DV tape.. nobody every says they use it on there $6000 prosumer cameras, but many people do at one point in desperate times.
 
Sure Jarred.

You can also put gasoline in a diesel car which will really screw it up, but at some point I feel the responsibility needs to be on the user. I feel given the choice an extremely overwhelming majority of RED consumers would pick the choice of a standard flash card option.
 
Finner said:
Sure Jarred.

You can also put gasoline in a diesel car which will really screw it up, but at some point I feel the responsibility needs to be on the user. I feel given the choice an extremely overwhelming majority of RED consumers would pick the choice of a standard flash card option.
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That's great as long as it works, but what happens if you get one that doesn't work with the RED?
 
All depends on the price, for me. i'm willing to pay a premium (within reason) to get a decent amount of storage and guaranteed reliability .
 
Hi Blaine

Thats why I mentioned the warning or disclaimer on the flash port. As long as you buy a flash card that is the proper speed rating according to what Jim says it will work fine. Now you could get a dud card from SanDisk or another memory manufacturer but there would be just as big of a chance getting a dud from RED in that case.

Pretty much if you buy a flash card that does not have the speed rating that RED states is needed it is your own fault for not following directions. It's not much different then buying a sony HD900 tape and being upset that it will not work in your panasonic camera.

Lets face it if RED buys Sandisk flash memory and then packages it into a RED flash card it will be inevitably more expensive. I don't think that is something anyone wants.

Personally I think all the owners would be very careful on their flash card choices for their camera. I know mine will be babied. Also if your in a position where you desperately need a flash card ASAP do you really want to have to order one from RED and have to wait out the delivery time. For RED owners out of the country this could be a big hastle and expense.
 
I somehow doubt that the Red Ram/Flash will be as simple as a single CF card. The stated capacity of 32GB seems to rule that out immediately. I think it's reasonable for Red to use a proprietary flash system in this version 1.0 system knowing that in a year or two memory like CF or Flash Drives will be both fast enough and have the capacity to be real options.

P.S. Sandisk currently has a card, the Extreme IV that can write at a peak of 40MB per second. As well as a 16GB card that is slower but we can obviously see we are not far off from this being a viable solution. However some patience is necessary.
 
I hope it does not come across like I am trying to stir the pot. I am just addressing this issue as I feel there are a lot of pro's and cons to each side. I am not real flash tech experienced so I am just trying to bring out all the points on this. I just like everyone else am just looking forward to getting the best camera possible.
 
Maybe there's something I don't understand, but if I recall correctly, an 8GB P2 card is really a RAID of four 2GB SD card in a small enclosure with a RAID controller, isn't?

So, if I'm right, that's why you can't use your own flash memory card, right?

Or are you speaking about being able to replace the flash memory inside this enclosure with your own memory?
 
Trust

Trust

I think we all have been the victims of pricing policies on critical items in this business for so long that our radar starts beeping as soon as the word "proprietary" gets used. P2 is certainly a cautionary tale fresh in many minds. At this point I am willing to trust that the Red Leader will be very judicious in marking up the flash media and accept the trade off of more reliability. Jim has already stated that in a year or two a more open standard solution may be available.

Bottom line - in the Red Leader I trust until I have reason not to.
 
I see 2 solutions: 1. Like Avid, certify the Flash Card with an online REDLIST of approved Flash Cards. and 2. RED Flash - say 20% more but guaranteed money back and tested... I'm sure lots of us would pay a premium for that and RED makes some $$$.... and for the adventurous people, they can try a RED Certified flash card, and if it works, use it. Otherwise, they can sell it on e-bay to all the still photographers.
 
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