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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

detachable back plate for buttons, similar to a car stereo's detachable face?

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Eugene

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Is there time to redesign the Red One? I heard some grumblings about the placement of the buttons on the back. Is there time to redesign it so the buttons are on the side? Could the buttons be on a detachable face? Could the detachable face be connected to to the handle bars?

I liked the photoshop image someone did of themself holding the Red One, and wearing a time tank and thump Oakleys. Could someone use Photoshop and add a detachable face of a car stereo to one of his hands.

What do people think of this?

foryou17.jpg


I would like a detachable face for the buttons. (The face, when detached, could be connected by a USB cable.) It would be anti-theft. But mainly it would help you in filming. If you use the Red Rail, you would have all the controls at your finger tips. They are not, when the Red is mounted on your shoulder and the buttons are on the back. If you use the Red on a tripod, a detachable face connected by a wire would allow you to push the buttons without jiggling the camera. Also if the buttons break, you just order a new face instead of sending in your precious Red for repairs. I don't know if a detachable face would help people designing under water camera housings. Let me know.

If a cheap $100 car stereo can have a detachable face, why can't a $17,000+ camera? Come on Red Team, make it happen. Or is all this talk of revoluion and listening to the customer just a lot of hype?
 
If possible that would be a great idea. I am possitive that having the user info and buttons available to use on the camera smart side would save Red a lot of complaints they will get about the camera as compared to only being on the rear.
 
The Red team has said repeatedly that the camera has usb to facilitate this kind of thing. Engineering wise I'd guess that something like your asking would add another month to the development. Red has had plently of input from the user base over the past year and I think its a little unfair to say that their listening to the customer is a bunch of hype... especially now... a few months before the release to market. They've had to pick and choose their battles wisely to pull this off in a year - so if the coffee warmer and 6 disc cd changer don't make it into the design because they decided that it was more important to work on the red cage thats fine by Me :)
 
Detachable sounds like something that would easily break or get lost. My car stereo is already seriously broken due to this detachable face and it's not like I put it on and off every day.

I would rather see an external control interface made by RED or another company that you connect to the USB port and allows you to do the critical stuff .
 
CVB said:
The Red team has said repeatedly that the camera has usb to facilitate this kind of thing. Engineering wise I'd guess that something like your asking would add another month to the development. Red has had plently of input from the user base over the past year and I think its a little unfair to say that their listening to the customer is a bunch of hype... especially now... a few months before the release to market. They've had to pick and choose their battles wisely to pull this off in a year - so if the coffee warmer and 6 disc cd changer don't make it into the design because they decided that it was more important to work on the red cage thats fine by Me :)
Click to expand...

I agree the camera is a huge task. In the defense of having the information and buttons on the camera smart side can you tell me of one single camera that does not have the info screen and buttons on the camera smart side. If you research this I will be suprisied if you can find even one profesional camera that does not have this feature on the smart side I sure don't know of one other then Red. There is a reason for this. Now if my red camrea arives with it on the back I will live with it, It will still produce great images, I think it will become my favorite camera to work with and I will always hate, bitch and complain about the info and buttons being inconveniently located on the back.
 
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analogy

analogy

Ever hear of a TV company selling a TV with all the buttons on the back, and charging extra for a remote? It's the same thing except that it is a camera instead of a TV.
 
Rear Control & Status Panel

Rear Control & Status Panel

We are always open to reasoned input -

Yes there are menu buttons and also a status display on the camera back, and that's not the traditional location.

Would be interested in any feedback on which of the buttons on the back of the camera you would prefer to have elsewhere on the camera body?
 
Comparison with ARRI D-20

Comparison with ARRI D-20

Let's have a look comparatively what is Arri D-20 have on both sizes of the camera body;
on the left size below is a little LCD with text and numbers, some other buttons,
see on the below picture

d20_head.jpg


on the right size there are many buttons and some input/output, the most of in/out things are on a back of the cam,
see the picture below

D-20_back_right_ivs.jpg
 
Its great to hear that you are open to possibly changing things with the buttons and display.

I feel very strongly that control of shutter, fps, acquisition format, and a read out screen of this information needs to be on the camera view finder side (smart side). So the 1st AC can quickly change and see this info at a glance. If it is not there you will have a lot of 1st AC's refusing to pull focus with this camera. If fps or shutter or aquisition is wrong then the 1st AC gets blamed so many will not want to go near this camera for that reason alone. Also when these mistakes are made on a shoot with a red camera (I say when because with this info not infront of an AC it will happen) you will have unhappy DOP's that will not see the advantages of the red but rather the high chance of mistakes to be made with that info on the back. The info and buttons on the back will hinder red being choosen for shoots. The buttons also need some form of a lock so they can not be accidentally bumped after being set.

One more thing the audio controls need to be accessable and functional while shooting and not in some seperate menu.

I am not bashing the red here, I have ordered one and think it is a good camera. Just feel there are some important things being over looked. If the info is left on the back red will lose some bussiness and if the next generation comes out with this info and controls on the smart side myself and I am sure many others will not be able to get rid of the camera with info on the back fast enough to buy one with it on the side.

I hope people don't bash me on this I am very excited about the camera its just unfortunate because controls and a info screen on the back is a major functional error.
 
I'd like the camera to maintain its ambidextrous functionality, so if a button is available on the left side of the camera it would also be nice if it's available on the same spot on the right side. If different functionality must be assigned to each button, then maybe the menu system could allow the camera to be set to either "right-handed" or "left-handed" operation, resulting in a flip-flop of the left and right side functionality.

If there is a usb detachable button/knob panel, then that would likely solve the problem of ambidexterity as well as helping to future-proof the camera. But I'm not in favor of the detachable panel unless it can be designed to hug the body as though they are one item.

And on a tangent: A remote control of the camera would be very useful, even if it's just two buttons to start it and stop it recording. Even better would be if the remote has an additional two buttons for power-on and power-off. Ok... a fifth button too, to take a snap shot.
 
The Third Man said:
Let's have a look comparatively what is Arri D-20 have on both sizes of the camera body;
on the left size below is a little LCD with text and numbers, some other buttons,
see on the below picture


on the right size there are many buttons and some input/output, the most of in/out things are on a back of the cam,
see the picture below
Click to expand...

The controls on the Smart side or "left side" as you call it are every single control that has anything to do with changes of the camera fps,shutter,footage counter... and more. Also all the display info for what is happening with the camera is on that side.

On the Dummy side or "right side" is the power connector plug and the video assist unit that just controls what info and how the video output is set up for the directors/clients monitor. The outputs are bnc for monitors and some sync for spfx matching shots shooting. These buttons do not control anything for the camera itself.

Like you mention there are outputs and some inputs on the rear.

If Red was to set up their camera like this I would be very happy.
 
Controls on the back vs the side

Controls on the back vs the side

Benefits of controls on the side:

- It's quick to check the status of switches when you take you eye off the VF.
- If you're seated on an apple box or a dolly seat it's easier to check stuff.
- If you're going handheld you can shift it on your shoulder to get a look at the controls without pulling the camera off your shoulder all the way

Benefits of controls on the back:
- It's easier for the camera assistant to do all of these things while the operator stays on the camera, looking through the viewfinder. Don't forget we'll prolly want to have the LCD going as well as the EVF as seen in the updated camera renders on red.com

If the camera is a cinema product that will be operated by a crew and not just a single user, I say keep them on the back. The D-20 seems to fit this model although in this case the ports are switched with the controls.

I used to be in the hard-core "controls on the left" camp but I think I have switched sides now. The fact is that you can't really do the manual-focus lens thing without someone pulling focus and someone else operating.
 
The problem with placing buttons on the left side is it screws with the 15% or more people who would prefer them on the other side. With RED, there is no "smart side" or "viewfinder side" everything attaches where the user wants/needs it for the job at hand. Controls on the rear make the most logical sense given the practical uses of this camera. I think having the controls on a separate unit that can be mounted anywhere on any of the camera mount points and/or off camera would be a good idea. But I see that as an additional accessory and not what should be there as standard. Most users are going to find the controls to be just fine right where they are. When shooting with this camera on a tripod or steadycam, the controls are right where they should be.

...Or at least that's how I see it. Having not seen any of this RED stuff with my own eyes yet.
 
lordnumberzero said:
Benefits of controls on the back:
- It's easier for the camera assistant to do all of these things while the operator stays on the camera, looking through the viewfinder. Don't forget we'll prolly want to have the LCD going as well as the EVF as seen in the updated camera renders on red.com
Click to expand...

I have to disagree 100%. I worked as a focus puller for 7 years on various movies (Unforgiven, Legends of the fall and many other features) I would have never ever wanted the info and controls or have I ever worked with experienced focus puller profesionals that would want the controls and info on any side but the "Smart side". The camera smart side was given that nickname because it is where all the controls and info need to be. Now as a cameraman I do not want my focus puller not to be able to see the info right in front of them. The info and buttons are actually easier for the focus puller to reach on the side then in the back when the camera op stays on the camera.
 
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