Is RedCine the only way possible to convert Red Raw media?

[Gbabymogul]

What gives you "REDCODE"? (Not REDCODE RAW?)

I assume anything that's not RAW - REDCODE RGB 1080p, REDCODE RGB 720p. BTW - #6 & 7 ? Nice

 

[Thomas Mathai]

Thomas: why not do the conversion in REDCINE yourself? Just ask for the original camera negatives and process those yourself.

offhollywood: if you can export to REDCODE then that should work. But that is a different REDCODE than REDCODE RAW which is what the camera generates (and is loadable *in to* REDCINE)

Well if I have to use RedCine I will.

It's always easier to use the tools I already have at my disposal.

I'm just looking to address these questions that I know will pop up in the following months.

 

[J. Bernard Vallon]

Obin, you're missing the point of what REDCINE is. It's not a colour correction application. It's primarily a RAW converter, and it has controls needed and required by a RAW converter. Also, the beginning of the workflow, where REDCINE is used, primarily, is not the place where you normally do advanced colour correction.

(this quote is from dvxuser) Graeme, I was hoping REDCine would work like Apple Aperture's raw capabilities, or a similar photography RAW converter. When the data is straight out of the camera, it is the best time to do color correction with custom curves etc. Will this not be the case?

-John
RED #613
www.myspace.com/ShootRED

 

[Rob Lohman]

Thomas: that's possible as well if they can load a QuickTime file (have to be careful to get more than 8-bits per channel though) or you can export something like a DPX sequence from REDCINE without doing any processing to the footage at all.


offhollywood: exporting to the QuickTime codec will give you that.

We are still finishing up all the post workflow tidbits, it's quite complex (behind the scenes). We will come out with a clear overview (picture?) once it has all settled.

As it looks now REDCINE will import all files generated by the camera and no doubt recordings made on the RED-RAID in the near future. It will not load your own generated REDCODE files.


PerfectOptics: no, not color correction in the traditional sense of the word. That implies much more and different controls. The application does have color controls but these are meant (together with the other controls) to get the image in the right range before further processing. Just like a one light in film terms: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-light

It indeed operates like other RAW converters, but on moving images.

For final color correction & other post effects you want to use tools more adapted to do that, like 3-way color correction, secondary color correction, power windows and so on.

 

[Brook Willard]

I can only hope that some new 4K 3-way color correction w/ secondaries moves down into an accessible range - within Final Cut Studio would be nice

Shake could hold me over but I'm just hoping a more streamlined option appears.

On this mysterious timeline that we'll see at some point... what will happen after pushing an EDL through REDCINE? Once we have our online picture lock coming out of the app for final color work... will that be entirely up to us or will there be some RED [or inherently REDCODE compatible] solution? I keep having to stomp out my inner rumor-monger every time I see Apple make a big move like buying Silicon Color... if only there was some RED-Apple collaboration

 

[Simon Blackledge]

Will the REDCINE application be available seperatly? Post houses etc that shoot/hire using red?

 

[Mike Zinner]

Rob,

Will the color controls in REDCINE be kind of the Cineform RAW color tools, basically white balance and color matrix? Or even more sophisticated stuff?

This is what their stuff looks like, as mentioned on David's blog.
DemoCineFormRAW-WIP.wmv

Btw. I know you guys are competing with Cineform in a way but also that David Newman is under a NDA with Red. That makes me hope (and I guess a lot of guys here) that Cineform will still be treated as first class citizen and that a lossless conversion from REDCODE RAW to Cineform RAW will be available in REDCINE.

Not that I want to pay Cineform e.g. $2k for fun... But if I get all the real time effects I now have for 1080p available for 4K - those $2k would definitely be the best investment ever, after the $17,5k for the Red One of course

Thanks,
Mike

 

[Rob Lohman]

Mike: Graeme is the color (control) man, so he might have a more accurate answer, but amongst the features (subject to change!):

- White balance (Kelvin / tint)
- Saturation
- Gain
- Exposure
- Brightness
- Shadow
- Contrast
- Curves
- Output gamma

And the earlier mentioned resizing, cropping & positioning together with some other little things

p.s. keep in mind there is a difference in working real time on a preview proxy from 4K versus working on an actual 4K images. David has indicated as well that just the debayer on a 4K image is already very expensive (time consuming)

 

[Graeme Nattress]

You missed out curves!

Graeme

 

[Rob Lohman]

D'oh! Added them in now, thanks Graeme

 

[Thomas Mathai]

Thomas: that's possible as well if they can load a QuickTime file (have to be careful to get more than 8-bits per channel though) or you can export something like a DPX sequence from REDCINE without doing any processing to the footage at all.


offhollywood: exporting to the QuickTime codec will give you that.

We are still finishing up all the post workflow tidbits, it's quite complex (behind the scenes). We will come out with a clear overview (picture?) once it has all settled.

As it looks now REDCINE will import all files generated by the camera and no doubt recordings made on the RED-RAID in the near future. It will not load your own generated REDCODE files.


PerfectOptics: no, not color correction in the traditional sense of the word. That implies much more and different controls. The application does have color controls but these are meant (together with the other controls) to get the image in the right range before further processing. Just like a one light in film terms: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-light

It indeed operates like other RAW converters, but on moving images.

For final color correction & other post effects you want to use tools more adapted to do that, like 3-way color correction, secondary color correction, power windows and so on.

Combustion does a nice job of converting to DPX without having to appy a lut, Shake too.

 

[Thomas Mathai]

I can only hope that some new 4K 3-way color correction w/ secondaries moves down into an accessible range - within Final Cut Studio would be nice

Shake could hold me over but I'm just hoping a more streamlined option appears.

On this mysterious timeline that we'll see at some point... what will happen after pushing an EDL through REDCINE? Once we have our online picture lock coming out of the app for final color work... will that be entirely up to us or will there be some RED [or inherently REDCODE compatible] solution? I keep having to stomp out my inner rumor-monger every time I see Apple make a big move like buying Silicon Color... if only there was some RED-Apple collaboration

I have never been a fan of having all my finishing tools in my NLE while editing, just makes it all cumbersome in the end, especially when you're doing long form.

That being said, it's nice to be able to throw on a quick CC, or key and have it sent to someone or another workstation for finessing.

EDL is an old concept that needs to be retired. I know there has been lots of talk about AAF and MXF, but a lot of app developers need to get serious about passing through and maintaining metadata information as we move from app to app.

I think this will happen quicker when more affordable asset management software comes to market.

A lot of indie filmmakers have one or 2 systems that they load everything on to do their work. As systems get cheaper, I see a typical indie studio including a few main workstations, a server for asset management and a small render farm to do all the crunching.

 

[David Newman]

p.s. keep in mind there is a difference in working real time on a preview proxy from 4K versus working on an actual 4K images. David has indicated as well that just the debayer on a 4K image is already very expensive (time consuming)

However we aren't working with a proxy, the entire image is present (up to 4096 by 4096 -- the codec can hold more, yet most NLE tools can't.) We all know we won't "preview" to that resolution for a few years, but previewing at 2K in multi-stream real-time is doable today. When the playback is stopped, scrubbed, or zoomed in, all 4096 pixel data is demoasiced and presentated (on the fly.) This is important for any effects work that requires access to online resolution and data.

I know you guys are competing with Cineform in a way but also that David Newman is under a NDA with Red. That makes me hope (and I guess a lot of guys here) that Cineform will still be treated as first class citizen and that a lossless conversion from REDCODE RAW to Cineform RAW will be available in REDCINE.

We hope not to be treated as a competitor either. We should be seen as just another NLE vendor wanting to support the Red camera, and that is a good thing. Just as Red shouldn't prevent the users adding Cooke lenses to their camera, we should be an optional post-production solution. As CineForm compression is already available with a Quicktime wrapper on the PC (soon on the Mac), all REDCINE needs to do is expose 12-linear RAW data to the QuickTime API and the user than then select CineForm RAW as a target format for post.

Not that I want to pay Cineform e.g. $2k for fun... But if I get all the real time effects I now have for 1080p available for 4K - those $2k would definitely be the best investment ever, after the $17,5k for the Red One of course

Thanks Mike, we do intend to make post a good experience for a wide range of cameras. You might be shooting RED ONE as your primary camera, it is nice to know your post tools can cut in pickup shoots everything else (Sony's nice new HDV 24p, P2, HDCAM, etc.) while maintaining real-time workflow.

 

[Brook Willard]

I have never been a fan of having all my finishing tools in my NLE while editing, just makes it all cumbersome in the end, especially when you're doing long form.

I couldn't agree more. Final Cut Studio is a suite of applications - Final Cut Pro is just one of them. I'd want color control moved to a separate app.

 

[Rob Lohman]

However we aren't working with a proxy, the entire image is present (up to 4096 by 4096 -- the codec can hold more, yet most NLE tools can't.) We all know we won't "preview" to that resolution for a few years, but previewing at 2K in multi-stream real-time is doable today. When the playback is stopped, scrubbed, or zoomed in, all 4096 pixel data is demoasiced and presentated (on the fly.) This is important for any effects work that requires access to online resolution and data.

I guess the word 'proxy' is wrong. Funny thing is we had internal discussions about this word. It's not a separate proxy file. It is indeed a 'preview' instead of a separate proxy. We are talking about the same thing

 

[David Newman]

Rob,

You got it. Proxy is an evil word to us, as in implies offline. Just as DPX is not a proxy for REDCODE, CineForm is the same yet lightly compressed, whereas in many cases DVCPRO-HD would be used as a proxy. We are an online format full-resolution, full-quality format.

 

[Häakon]

I couldn't agree more. Final Cut Studio is a suite of applications - Final Cut Pro is just one of them. I'd want color control moved to a separate app.

Very interesting. I think the thing I dislike most about FCS (and one reason I have yet to "make the switch" is because everything is separated. I love being able to have my timeline, apply realtime effects, text/character gen support, and color grading all in one place so if I want to change something - even something small - I don't have to render out, export to another app, render it again there, and bring it back into FCP. The only application I think should definitely be a standalone in the Studio suite is DVD Studio Pro, but that's just me. As has been said many times previously, choices are a good thing!

I also like offline editing too... so I guess I'll just bow out of this one.

 

[Brook Willard]

The handy thing is that there is rarely any "rendering out" to another app. You just go to the file menu and select "send project to _____". Ten seconds later you have the whole project opened up in another app. You get all of the unnecessary controls out of the way and can focus on one task.

Currently, color controls are right in Final Cut Pro. While this is great for small tweaks, I prefer to do my finishing outside of my NLE - in a workspace strictly dedicated to the image.

But that's all a discussion for another thread

 

[Häakon]

That's pretty cool. Most of my "rendering out" experience when working with FCP has been to After Effects, though - and there's no "send project to" for that. But there's no question that Apple's suite has become a very popular one, and given the Red team's preference for it, I will probably be migrating down that path at some point this year.

 

[Appleton]

For final color correction & other post effects you want to use tools more adapted to do that, like 3-way color correction, secondary color correction, power windows and so on.

Rob, what would you be looking at for when onlining 1080p/2K for colour grading and finishing RED footage ?

Scratch obviously is a good choice, and if it could somehow be competitively bundled with REDCINE, you'd have a winner.

Maybe NAB will answer the question ? Finishing software is one part of the puzzle I'm still working out. Thanks.