Editor Demanding I shoot 2k | Please Help

[Björn Benckert]

Or change the camera.

Epic with external recorder is no added FPS, no added DR, no added Resolution for zoom in /stabilisation, no added RAW capabiliites and a much slower delivery (or more expensive using a DIT with Rocket). Either shoot Epic and use those + or change the camera.

Pat

This is not really true. I used sounddevice proxy recorders so I can edit allready on set with small files, even pushed it down to 1280x720 proressproxy to be able to do multi layer editing in real time on a tiny laptop. If the material is over cranked I timewarp it right. Then when I get home I know I got full resolution 5k raw highspeed material to feed into my flame for the online session. That no other camera can do.

So to get things right it's important to separate edting, grading and VFX. even if all of those is done on the same machine it's very often so that r3d raw files are not the most handy file format for all these 3 instances, editing is one of them. So even if the r3d's might bring total chaos to the editing bay, shooting raw might save the day in the grading session or in the VFX work so changing camera to a prores / lowress / low bit depth alternative is not really the one fits all kind of solution.

Shooting compressed raw is a really nice as it keeps a lot of doors open that in other ways would be shut closed on set also if it's done correctly it only takes a little bit of extra effort. But if you force it onto people and mess things up then it very much could cost your carrier. So before you go shot RAw make sure you are in sync with your DIT or even better make sure that you, by yourself can render the files to any format so it's ready for delivery the morning after shoot. If you got that down, then I think you will see good things coming.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

I understand Björn but I never got accurate TC using the Soundevice proxy recorder (+ or - 1 to 2 frames). This was last year in april... so things could have changed since. And adjusting the picture in the conforming process is also possible... but I never go this way as it gets my setup heavier. I give editors the transcoded material.

Pat

 

[Les Dittert]

I had a similar request. The issue is that many don't understand that shooting a Red at 2K does not get you a 2K resolution image. In my case the request was to shoot 4kHD which is 3840x2160 . No repo room, no room to stabilize, not true 4K at all .
If he can only edit 2K, they shoot higher and transcode/resize to 2K for them, giving them true 2K.

 

[Björn Benckert]

I understand Björn but I never got accurate TC using the Soundevice proxy recorder (+ or - 1 to 2 frames). This was last year in april... so things could have changed since. And adjusting the picture in the conforming process is also possible... but I never go this way as it gets my setup heavier. I give editors the transcoded material.


Pat

I use in picture timecode so then it does not matter much.If it's off or off speed then it's just to sync up the clips to the in frame TC if it's not correct. But I would for sure rather have a DIT that transfer and transcode the files. If I was a DOP and the production could not afford or get such person I would then do the transcode myself, for a one or a few days shoot. If I was shooting a feature or such then I would make sure the editor / post house was supplied with a rocket and also make sure that they are tough how to use it and then let them do the transcodes if they for some reason could not be done at set.

Doing transcodes for editing, web dailies and such at set is a good way of double checking the material. Something I find to be a very good practice instead of just sending the files off to post without really knowing if they all even render properly.

 

[Walter R]

You've gotten a lot of good advice, but I would just repeat what several others have said about shooting 2K. Don't do it. Besides the fact that you will be personally disappointed by the footage, somewhere down the line someone will say something about it not looking great and they will blame you or the camera. You said this is an important job for you, so unless it is a one shot and the cash is worth it, find a way to transcode the video for the editor and make him love the footage.

Shooting for others isn't our main business (we mostly produce complete projects), but when we do get hired just to shoot, we make sure that we get the editor something they can easily use. We let them know the benefits of editing with raw files, including the benefits for stabilization and zooming/cropping into the image which most editors quickly become addicted to when they get a taste. For those willing to give it a try, we give them 4KHD as a good compromise between quality and speed of editing for a 1080 finish. As Bjorn wisely noted, giving someone 5K may be problematic, especially if this is there first time working with Red files. But if they can't handle 4KHD raw files (or are scared to try) we transcode and give them what they know.

If they absolutely need the footage instantly, you may have to consider the external recorder, but I think that is definitely a lesser option for the reasons Patrick mentioned.

You will have to decide if the transcoding and/or external recorder is part of the package you need to provide to get the work or if you are able to charge for it, but I think you've got the right attitude in trying to find a way to keep the editor happy while maintaining quality. You want them to love your shooting, but just as importantly you want them to still remember you fondly at the end of post. At least that is what has worked to generate repeat business for us.

Let us know how it goes.

 

[Jason Comparetto]

Friends don't let friends shoot 2K.


If I made a bunch of t-shirts with this motto, would anyone sport it? Looks like sound advice to me

 

[Björn Benckert]

Friends don't let friends shoot 2K.


If I made a bunch of t-shirts with this motto, would anyone sport it? Looks like sound advice to me

"Don't sensor crop for no reason."


Would be a more accurate t shirt

 

[Mike Kushner]

Love my Epic, but the simplest way to have an immediately ready to edit file without having the very newest editing software and hardware is to choose a camera system that records a ready to edit format on those edit systems. If the Epic could do that (with all frame rates and no external recorder) don't think Arri and Sony would have as much market share. I know of a couple high-end, ad agency producers that have a no-red edict on their shoots because of turn around time and transcode expense. Its really a shame.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Love my Epic, but the simplest way to have an immediately ready to edit file without having the very newest editing software and hardware is to choose a camera system that records a ready to edit format on those edit systems. If the Epic could do that (with all frame rates and no external recorder) don't think Arri and Sony would have as much market share. I know of a couple high-end, ad agency producers that have a no-red edict on their shoots because of turn around time and transcode expense. Its really a shame.

Are these agencies shooting any Alexa Log-C? How are they dealing with the ProRes 444 Log-C files? I have found many times editors don't want those files either. So we end up transcoding anyway, down to ProRes 422 with a REC709 LUT burned in for offline, and then they link back to the Log-C in finish.

A decent RED transcoding system can get R3D>ProRes transcodes done in realtime. A kickass system like a nextLAB or Light Iron Outpost cart can crank through transcodes even faster, so I'm always curious what people are comparing things to. If you are filming Alexa ProRes in Rec709 mode, the turnaround time argument makes some sense. Or if editorial has a workflow for being able to process Log-C in realtime in the NLE that argument is valid as well. For example, Media Composer 7 has Log>Rec709 LUT capability built in now. Even still, there are times when editorial will want DNxHD36 as opposed to ProRes or they want window burns, or some other requirement, all requiring transcoding/processing, same as RED workflow.

Not disputing that there are times when other workflows make more sense than R3D workflow, but sometimes I wonder if people actually think it all through and do the actual research to know what is involved in order to have facts to compare.