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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

HP Z820 , Z620 and Z420 is upgradeable to Thunderbolt 2 , Xeon V2 and faster Memory !

J

John Bellari

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Just read this article on the amazing upgradeability in the existing HP Z workstations, congrats to HP for
allowing us users to maximize our chasis lifespan instead of having to buy all new from scratch (as Apple certainly wants) ... Congrats on taking a page out of Red's book on upgradeability...


http://www.digitalartsonline.co.uk/...2-chips-with-up-24-cores-z-workstations-line/

"While the chips and RAM are new, the rest of the workstation is the same as before.

At the event last week, HP's Ron Rogers – who runs the company's R&D for workstations – told me that they were aware of the V2 range when designing the Z420, Z620 and Z820. From the outset, the motherboards used supported both V1 and V2 Xeon E5-2600 chips and haven't needed to be upgraded for the V2s. It's therefore possible for owners of older Z420, Z620 and Z820 models to
swap out their V1 chips and 1,600MHz RAM for V2 chips and 1,866MHz RAM.


If you one of those older models and just want the new RAM, you can't. The 1,866MHz RAM won't run at full speed without V2 chips also installed.


HP has also began offering NVidia's top-of-the-line Quadro K6000 graphics card. This features 12GB of GDDR5 graphics RAM to help it with incredibly complex scenes and 2,880 streaming multiprocessor (SMX) cores for hyper-powerful overall performance. The card supports four simultaneous displays at up to 4k in resolution (via DisplayPort 1.2). Other options include Nvidia's Quadro K600, K2000, K4000 and K5000 – as well as AMD's FirePro W7000.


The final new option is a Thunderbolt 2 add-in board, which can be added to older Z420, Z620 and Z820 models as well as bought with the new ones. Thunderbolt 2 allows data transfer at up to 20GBps, which translates into multiple streams of uncompressed HD or two of 4K. Thunderbolt is used to attach high-end storage systems – though currently Thunderbolt storage devices such as G-Tech's G-RAID with Thunderbolt or LaCie's 5big use the original 10GBps version of Thunderbolt..."

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Update 12/22/2013 Even though HP supposedly updated the firmware to support the "new" intel processors at BIOS 3.50, my first test of a new Xeon E5 V2 failed on the BIOS Z420/620 updated 3.50 and now 3.52 firmware. The system wouldn't post at all, yet the fans run and after about 30 seconds the pair of case fans ramp up to 747 fan blade speeds during take off...
 
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The Thunderbolt 2 add-on board is indeed a nice option and I'm looking forward to it. Kinda funny... I was at HP talking to a lot of these guys a little over a year ago and they were asking me what I thought about Thunderbolt and a few other things as it pertained to our niche of the industry here. I told them they needed Thunderbolt on all their workstations. They seemed a bit puzzled by that. They were indeed interested in Thunderbolt, at the time primarily for mobile workstations and the Z1 workstation as a future option. A lot changes in just a year.

I'm also hoping that they will get those 4K DreamColor displays on the market. I pretty much begged them for such a thing and that was met with a collective sigh amongst the group. I was far from the first to make the request and I was of course nowhere near the last....

As for the V1 and V2 series Xeons, that's pretty much old news. Most all E5-2600 series or "Romley" platform motherboards can be upgraded to the new CPUs. The Zx20 series workstations were sold with this upgradeability as a selling-point. So yeah, I'd love to drop a couple 10 or 12 core Xeons in my Z820 along with some faster RAM. I guess I'll have to see how cost-effective the upgrades turn out to be. Because, frankly, the Z820 so far hasn't been that great of an investment. On the one hand it's a pretty nice system, some quirks and design WTF's for sure, but it's a considerable investment in relation to the actual amount of computing power. It's one of the few systems I've purchased in a long time that couldn't be ROI'd within the first 8 months. I've had mine for close to 18 months now and I don't think I've found the break-even point. I'm hoping that I can upgrade CPUs and RAM, add a Thunderbolt 2 card and squeeze another 2 years out of the system before it's obsolete. Maybe.
 
I don't think the 820's are substantially more expensive than other systems with comparable specs... and I've been pretty pleased with the overall package relative to comparable Dell's(for instance)... for desktops at least. On the laptop side I'm not particularly impressed with HP 8770 mobile worksations's relative to Dell Precision series (I've had more problems with the HP's... ssd's failing, overheating with extreme series processors, etc...)
 
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Well, for our flame it is good news =)
 
Wonder if this thunderbolt card works in other non-HP systems.
 
David Kuhn said:
I don't think the 820's are substantially more expensive than other systems with comparable specs... and I've been pretty pleased with the overall package relative to comparable Dell's(for instance)... for desktops at least. On the laptop side I'm not particularly impressed with HP 8770 mobile worksations's relative to Dell Precision series (I've had more problems with the HP's... ssd's failing, overheating with extreme series processors, etc...)
Click to expand...

No more expensive than comparable systems from other vendors if you play the coupon game right. I guess what I'm saying is that systems like this are quite expensive. My Z820 was about $15K and that doesn't include monitors, external storage, Rocket card.... Doesn't even include the GPU I currently have installed (GTX Titan), but it was originally purchased with a Quadro 6000. Still a nice GPU and actually only about 3% slower in CUDA than that Titan. That's another discussion though. Anyway, it's one of those things where the amount of compute power isn't necessarily a linear increase with price. And for a lot of tools like this, sometimes ROI can't be one of the primary factors to consider when purchasing. Sometimes we have to bite the bullet and use the better tool for a certain job, even if the costs don't justify it. I can build a 6-core desktop that's clocked near 5GHz for 1/3 the price and when we factor in the types of software out there that currently benefit most from more than 6 cores, it comes down to highly nodal tasks like rendering. Stuff that can be easily divided amongst multiple systems. Of course, the Xeon platform does have other advantages and I do own it for certain reasons or tasks at which it excels.


Alex Kiritz said:
Jeff Kilgroe said:
some quirks and design WTF's for sure,
Click to expand...

Like what?
Click to expand...

Oh... I could rant on about it, and I have on these forums here and there. You can search / google if you want, but I'll mention my 3 biggest design faux pas committed by HP on this system:

1> The E5 Romley platform is much larger in terms of socket and physical CPU die / cooler size than the prior Nehalem/ Westmere core design and it consumes more power. And yet, HP decided to keep the same Z800 form factor for the Z820. They shoe-horned the new architecture into the same odd-sized box and this leads to a few spacing issues, which in turn are partially to blame for the next two issues I'm going to mention. To further compound spacing issues related to this design, they continue to keep step with the bulk of the PC industry and have yet to enter the 21st century when it comes to the design of the system's power supply. No proper solid-state components. I give them some points for at least breaking out of the square box paradigm, but come on. Issue #2 below could have been solved and the system could have been greatly improved if they would have made the system chassis a little wider (taller in terms of rack U space) and to actually conform to a standardized dimension. The PSU could have been shifted to the side and more useable storage bays added as well as freeing up slot height and vertical slot spacing. Dell took the time to almost figure this out with the T7600, HP screwed the pooch on this one.

2> Here's where we talk about two of the biggest gotcha's for the complacency in design demonstrated in point #1... You see that double-width X16 slot at the bottom of the PCIe stack? Go ahead, put a Titan or K6000 there. I dares ya. Good luck if you're using the onboard LSI RAID and need cables in those connectors that run along the bottom.... But even if you have Houdini-like PC assembly skills or unusually flexible GPU cards and manage to make the card fit, you won't want it there. You literally have 1mm of space between the fan side of your Q6000/K6000 or Titan GPU and the bottom floor of the case, it's going to overheat faster than you can say "Resolve blur nodes".

If that isn't enough, there's the airflow shroud that also helps to retain PCIe cards. It's that cover Dave removes in the video to expose the GPU, RAID and Rocket cards. Because the system is narrower than it should be, it doesn't only sacrifice vertical tower space, this airflow shroud intrudes on PCIe space. You can't use certain cards that protrude from the motherboard beyond a certain height. It's a few and far between issue, but I have encountered a few cards that need the height. And no, it's not the cards that are in error, this is an HP design blunder.

3> PCIe slot order. Who decided which order to put these slots in????

Derek Morrison said:
Looks to me to be an 8x PCI card.
Click to expand...

It is. Official specs are not released just yet and there are a couple versions that have been prototyped. Thunderbolt 2 hosts can be backed by either PCIe v2 or v3. The prototype Dave holds in the video may not be a functional one, or at least he didn't attempt to plug it in and show it working. It looked to be an X4 card actually. And had a single Thunderbolt port and what looked to be a USB port (3.1?).

I don't know if this card will work with other systems... Although, Thunderbolt 2 hosts can be contained on a PCIe card in this way so we should see some from other manufacturers. Thunderbolt 1 relied on proper support hooks at the system chipset level, so while some makers like ASUS and Gigabyte offer Thunderbolt add-in cards, they only work with the specific motherboards that support them and already have the Thunderbolt support incorporated onto the motherboard.

I know that Intel is pushing GPU makers to move to Thunderbolt 2 ports instead of ordinary DisplayPort. And that makes a heck of a lot of sense and opens up greater connectivity and expansion possibilities. Intel is also relaxing a lot on their approval and licensing process with Thunderbolt 2. While it wasn't expensive or strict before, it still drove away a lot of peripheral and motherboard makers who just didn't want to deal with it when USB3 filled the needs of most people.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
No more expensive than comparable systems from other vendors if you play the coupon game right. I guess what I'm saying is that systems like this are quite expensive. My Z820 was about $15K and that doesn't include monitors, external storage, Rocket card.... Doesn't even include the GPU I currently have installed (GTX Titan), but it was originally purchased with a Quadro 6000. Still a nice GPU and actually only about 3% slower in CUDA than that Titan. That's another discussion though. Anyway, it's one of those things where the amount of compute power isn't necessarily a linear increase with price. And for a lot of tools like this, sometimes ROI can't be one of the primary factors to consider when purchasing. Sometimes we have to bite the bullet and use the better tool for a certain job, even if the costs don't justify it. I can build a 6-core desktop that's clocked near 5GHz for 1/3 the price and when we factor in the types of software out there that currently benefit most from more than 6 cores, it comes down to highly nodal tasks like rendering. Stuff that can be easily divided amongst multiple systems. Of course, the Xeon platform does have other advantages and I do own it for certain reasons or tasks at which it excels.




Oh... I could rant on about it, and I have on these forums here and there. You can search / google if you want, but I'll mention my 3 biggest design faux pas committed by HP on this system:

1> The E5 Romley platform is much larger in terms of socket and physical CPU die / cooler size than the prior Nehalem/ Westmere core design and it consumes more power. And yet, HP decided to keep the same Z800 form factor for the Z820. They shoe-horned the new architecture into the same odd-sized box and this leads to a few spacing issues, which in turn are partially to blame for the next two issues I'm going to mention. To further compound spacing issues related to this design, they continue to keep step with the bulk of the PC industry and have yet to enter the 21st century when it comes to the design of the system's power supply. No proper solid-state components. I give them some points for at least breaking out of the square box paradigm, but come on. Issue #2 below could have been solved and the system could have been greatly improved if they would have made the system chassis a little wider (taller in terms of rack U space) and to actually conform to a standardized dimension. The PSU could have been shifted to the side and more useable storage bays added as well as freeing up slot height and vertical slot spacing. Dell took the time to almost figure this out with the T7600, HP screwed the pooch on this one.

.
Click to expand...


Is it possible to just swap the case out? and put it into a CaseLabs, or a Coolermaster CosmosII?
 
Richard Tran said:
Is it possible to just swap the case out? and put it into a CaseLabs, or a Coolermaster CosmosII?
Click to expand...

While I'm sure it is possible, it would only solve a couple issues while undoubtedly creating far more. You're dealing with adapting a probably not quite standard form factor along with proprietary PSU and other pieces. Destroying your warranty/ support too.

As "bad" as some of the issues are, there really are no other dual Xeon workstations on the market that I would recommend. Even building one yourself will force you into compromises and a selection of motherboards and other components that are mostly based on generic reference designs and little thought put into amenities for serious workstation power-users. I've said it many times before, but the PC components industry not only lacks innovation and forethought, the industry hasn't produced a revolutionary concept, outside of simply making more powerful hardware, in the last 20 years.
 
According to the TB2 spec for PCI-e add-on cards, the CPU needs to support TB and the MB must have a native TB controller or else have some sort of applicable GPIO or SGPIO port available, which the Z820 and many multi-cpu motherboards have, but most single socket boards do not.

Each TB2 port is x4 PCI-e lanes, so in theory you could put two TB2 ports on an x8 lane card or four TB2 ports on a x16 lane card, but I'm not sure what other restrictions apply to the DP/HDMI input connection and GPIO connection. I'm also sure you could get more card connection I/O with an internal USB3 header, rather than a GPIO/SGPIO, I'm also sure the spec won't allow the use of USB3 headers.
 
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I'd totally buy one for my main PC workstation.
 
The HP Thunderbolt2 add-in card only works in the Z820 & Z620

The HP Thunderbolt2 add-in card only works in the Z820 & Z620

The card I show in the video will ship with a small cable that attaches to the Motherboard for a direct connection . The Z820 & Z620 were designed to accept this card. I haven't seen any other system that has the connector on the motherboard. There is a picture of the card here: http://blogs.adobe.com/davtechtable/2013/09/whats-new-in-the-oct-2013-pro-video-cc-releases.html

Just scroll down until you see the card. Note the card has been updated again, since I shot this video. You can only have 1 card in you Z820 because there is only 1 connector on the motherboard. You will also see a larger port next to the TB port . This is Displayport "In" and it allows you to route your GPU card into the TB card to add video to the TB chain.It's not required to connect it, just an option if you need it.

Hope this helps,

DKH
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
As for the V1 and V2 series Xeons, that's pretty much old news. Most all E5-2600 series or "Romley" platform motherboards can be upgraded to the new CPUs. The Zx20 series workstations were sold with this upgradeability as a selling-point.
Click to expand...

Has anyone been able to verify this? I want to do some big data crunching on a budget without the hassle or uncertainty of building my own workstation, so have been considering a refurbished Z820 or T7600s with a low end V1 chip with the idea to upgrade it to v2. But no one seems to have tested upgradeabilty.

thanks!
 
The PCI-e thunderbolt cards aren't out yet, probably not till december or january at the earliest.
 
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