Dragon misconceptions and clarification...

[Robert Ruffo New]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Yes, there are major improvements to the noise floor, but what exactly does that mean?

One thing is that in many situations, Dragon will have a cleaner image with less noise. So, with increased resolution (6k), files will not necessarily exponentially increased in size. We may see standard REDCODE compression settings set higher than that of EPIC-MX. These are the details that I think should be listed in an easy to understand list. We all know how competing companies like to start rumors. Best to get the facts out now of how significant this upgrade is.

People also forget that with less noise, you get better color, especially in the darks. Noise is nothing more than a missed, imprecise guess at color by the sensor when there was no enough light for a more accurate guess. So a low noise sensor is necessarily a more color-accurate one.

 

[Kevin Marshall]

BUT with Dragons improved S/N ratio and two extra stops in the shadows I cant see why you cant underexpose a stop losing a stop in the shadows for an another stop in the highlights if a shot requires. I am looking forward to putting Dragon through its paces.

This is actually how I read Jarred's post. Here's the quote from the original thread:

The increased latitude of the Dragon isn't just in the bottom. The increase is also at the top.

So you get the same 16+ stops of latitude at 200 asa as you do at 2000 with the Dragon. No latitude penalty when you lower ASA. Which means when you are shooting outside, less ND filters. Less IR issues, better images.

Because the Dragon also has lower bottom end noise than the MX, You can still push the camera to where you want it.. and you will still get cleaner images than you did on Epic MX at any comparable ASA.

I think the first and last paragraph are important and give context to the middle one, which has been the main focus so far. I read this to mean that because of the extra DR, we of course have a wider latitude to expose - and because some of that improvement is at the top end, and not just the bottom, lower ISOs than before are also usable. So just like the M and the MX, you do get your whole DR at any ISO - just with your midpoint moved around. But because of the DR improvement at both ends, the range of usable ISOs has expanded at both ends.

At least that's how I read it.

 

[Elsie N]

Well I think it's perty obvious that the dragon will be the greatest camera ever made, no fan boy here ... just plain fact. What I need are the skills to take advantage of it, and I'm feeling fairly inadequate on that count right now. ...

Heh, heh... Patrick, my take is a little different. I know I will never utilize Dragon to its fullest, but I also am confident the camera will keep me from making a fool of myself.

With results not being baked in, it's almost fool proof. '-)

 

[Joel Arvidsson]

My love for visual story telling was materialized because I was able borrow a neighbours VCR player which I tethered to mine to cobble together a primitive editing station.

I loved when the vcr did get audiodubbing=).

 

[Shane Betts]

Jim, you are a rule breaker. Many love rules. It gives them a bearing in a scary world. I'm sure if you had made film cameras, or broadcast video cameras before you started on a digital cinema camera you may have less detractors. And, if your digital camera had recorded to uncompressed video or motion jpeg or some other kind of baked-in look, many would have felt more comfortable with RED. And, if you had pre-applied a lo-con filter, roll-off, sharpness and noise reduction in camera, many would have felt more comfortable.

But you took the hard road of striving to simply provide the most flexible, highest standard images from the smallest and most affordable (when you released the RED One) motion picture camera yet seen.

You bastard! You've scared the crap out of all those who, deep down in inside where they live, just feel afraid of change. They want to be there, but they don't want to travel. It's alarming just how many people in this business will do anything to cover their own arses and protect the status quo. But RED users get it and are willing to learn something new in order to get hold of the magic. If it's time to retire, you can head to Fiji with a justifiably smug grin on your face.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Jim, you are a rule breaker. Many love rules. It gives them a bearing in a scary world. I'm sure if you had made film cameras, or broadcast video cameras before you started on a digital cinema camera you may have less detractors. And, if your digital camera had recorded to uncompressed video or motion jpeg or some other kind of baked-in look, many would have felt more comfortable with RED. And, if you had pre-applied a lo-con filter, roll-off, sharpness and noise reduction in camera, many would have felt more comfortable.

But you took the hard road of striving to simply provide the most flexible, highest standard images from the smallest and most affordable (when you released the RED One) motion picture camera yet seen.

You bastard! You've scared the crap out of all those who, deep down in inside where they live, just feel afraid of change. They want to be there, but they don't want to travel. It's alarming just how many people in this business will do anything to cover their own arses and protect the status quo. But RED users get it and are willing to learn something new in order to get hold of the magic. If it's time to retire, you can head to Fiji with a justifiably smug grin on your face.

Shane,

Your post is great but...
I must say that I firmly dissagree with your last sentence. ;-)

Pat

 

[Elsie N]

Jim, you are a rule breaker. Many love rules. It gives them a bearing in a scary world. I'm sure if you had made film cameras, or broadcast video cameras before you started on a digital cinema camera you may have less detractors. And, if your digital camera had recorded to uncompressed video or motion jpeg or some other kind of baked-in look, many would have felt more comfortable with RED. And, if you had pre-applied a lo-con filter, roll-off, sharpness and noise reduction in camera, many would have felt more comfortable.

But you took the hard road of striving to simply provide the most flexible, highest standard images from the smallest and most affordable (when you released the RED One) motion picture camera yet seen.

You bastard! You've scared the crap out of all those who, deep down in inside where they live, just feel afraid of change. They want to be there, but they don't want to travel. It's alarming just how many people in this business will do anything to cover their own arses and protect the status quo. But RED users get it and are willing to learn something new in order to get hold of the magic. If it's time to retire, you can head to Fiji with a justifiably smug grin on your face.

Shane, I think you have pretty much covered the reasons for RED objectors, objecting... the negativity side.

Now let me offer some insight to the positive side. Some of us are not attached to the filmic look and just because those who were once film "lifers" and think everything has to look filmic, doesn't mean they are in the majority. Some do get it and are making the transition to the new normal. The new normal is clean and elegant, grainy and gritty, sharp and unnatural, natural, filmic, and on and on ad nauseam.

And in the digital world those who want cookie cutter footage out of the camera are probably shooting things like commercials where corporations follow the corporate mold for how other corporations' commercials look.

I guess the much defended Alexa IS a good camera to help the old guard transition or for those who don't quite understand how to create imagery other than just to shoot, get by.

I think that's why the R1, the Scarlet, the Epic MX and Dragon will remain relevant until something barely known at the present becomes tamed and invented.

That is, these cameras are generally manned and utilized be mainstream image creators rather than just image makers.

 

[Shane Betts]

Hey Elsie, the coming rant is not aimed at you. I know you get it man.

But, even if you do like the filmic look, the point I'd make is that what RED have delivered is you can achieve it - or whatever the hell else you want. Put a promist in front of the lens, a polarizer or leave it bare. Roll off the top and bottom in post or leave the "curve" digital straight. Lift or drop the saturation, apply sharpness or don't. Shit, output your 5k at 1/4 res SD if you want. It's your choice. Baked in is baked in. Change your mind with RAW and just try again.

But it scares people. Some seem afraid some boogey-man in post is going to ruin the pictures. Which I find odd. We've all had our video pictures "corrected" by some tech guy so they looked like The Days of Our Lives. And film? Man, people could do all kinds of shit to the image in post and it would cost a fortune to go back to rescan or telecine to have another crack at getting it the way you like it. With Redcode RAW the DP can open the files on their lappy in the foyer and do a regrade to show the post devils how it's supposed to look.

It's like the argument a mate of mine uses for Alexa vs Epic. He likes the cat on the shoulder feel. What? The Epic is the size of a Hassleblad. Just bolt some stuff on it and make it as big and cat-shaped as you like. But try to get a F65 or an Alexa in the footwell of a car...

My theory is the old guard love the Alexa partly because it's only a half step into the future. Sure, there's no film but it still looks and feels a bit like an old-style camera and it has ARRI on the side - so they feel like they have one foot in either camp. RED is a commitment to the future.

Sorry. [/rant]

 

[Patrick Wieland]

Being proud of RED is an understatement. I shoot with my RED almost every single day. I can't imagine shooting with any other camera at this point. The results I get and possibilities are truly what drive me to keep wanting to invest in RED.

RED created a weapon for film makers to take on the world....

 

[Scott Crawley]

My story and my reasons are very much the same Jim.

Thank you.

You are still much too strong to let the petty blood suckers take you down. I admire that. Do not waiver.

With kind regards,
Scott

Dear Jim,

I hope you don't think I'm rambling, but there is a point to my story....

I had a terrible time in school growing up. I grew up in a small town and sadly, they weren't too kind to minorities like myself. I became a little reclusive and found solace in technology and the arts. While teachers continued their assault on my academics, only one teacher let me show my true colors, and that was my art teacher. I gravitated towards visual arts and graphics. I finally found comfort in knowing I found a voice and that I was able to express myself. As much as I loved my film camera, it was the digital video camera that spear headed my new career path. ...

 

[Patrick Tresch]

In other words, the only reason that chart was posted was to keep people from jumping ship to Sony due to Dragon's delay.

Go jump... please jump... no one here will beg you otherwise.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Yours is a point of view. The point of view is yours... Meaning it likely has nothing to do with Red's motives and decisions. I personally think when considering Red and Sony, that it is Sony who is in the position of reacting to what Red is doing.

In other words, the only reason that chart was posted was to keep people from jumping ship to Sony due to Dragon's delay.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

In other words, the only reason that chart was posted was to keep people from jumping ship to Sony due to Dragon's delay.

if this is a joke its not funny.sorry dude

 

[Kalulu Ngilo]

nasty taste in my mouth after reading these lines. :/

In other words, the only reason that chart was posted was to keep people from jumping ship to Sony due to Dragon's delay.

 

[Brandon J.F.]

In other words, the only reason that chart was posted was to keep people from jumping ship to Sony due to Dragon's delay.

No, in other words they were so excited with the results that they felt they had to share them with us.

This is a passion project for Jim and I'm sure comments like yours are very draining on him. There's nothing wrong with constructive criticism, but some of you just seem to be out for blood.

 

[Jon Carr]

It still amazes me that I don't have to buy a whole new camera just because the company I bought it from came out with a new sensor technology that will be the next flag ship to their product line. I have the option to upgrade or not. It's my decision. It's your decision also. If you don't like the new sensor, don't upgrade the sensor. Keep the camera like it is or sell it. To sit around and complain or try to find fault about dragon is pointless. I'm just happy that I made my decision to upgrade to dragon. My EPIC gets reborn and gets more years of use thanks to RED and their pursuit in pushing technology.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

No, in other words they were so excited with the results that they felt they had to share them with us.

This is a passion project for Jim and I'm sure comments like yours are very draining on him. There's nothing wrong with constructive criticism, but some of you just seem to be out for blood.

Agree Brandon,

and few of this post like that is what some times pisses me off i this other wise Fantastic community of truly Passionate Filmmakers!!

 

[Michael Dalton]

Dear Jim,

I hope you don't think I'm rambling, but there is a point to my story....

I had a terrible time in school growing up. I grew up in a small town and sadly, they weren't too kind to minorities like myself. I became a little reclusive and found solace in technology and the arts. While teachers continued their assault on my academics, only one teacher let me show my true colors, and that was my art teacher. I gravitated towards visual arts and graphics. I finally found comfort in knowing I found a voice and that I was able to express myself. As much as I loved my film camera, it was the digital video camera that spear headed my new career path. My love for visual story telling was materialized because I was able borrow a neighbours VCR player which I tethered to mine to cobble together a primitive editing station. My parents had no clue what I was up to, but to me, the clouds had just ripped open and the sun had finally shown upon me.

When I look back on certain milestones in my life (aside from meeting my wife , and having my child,) I can unequivocally account them to specific technological advances and achievements. I cannot deny Apple computers had a profound impact on my life. Because of Apple, I was present with the emergence of Photoshop, Illustrator, Quark etc. Again, all part of the visual story telling palette. Because of my history using Nikon cameras, I remember grinning when I bought my D70, then D80, then D200, D3, and now D800E. All the while, finding work at ground breaking companies, like Alias|Wavefront, Autodesk, and IMAX. The Panasonic DVX100 was mind blowing to me. Most importantly I found a community that shared my passion, DVXUser. Wow, I found some amazing mentors on those forums that are still my friends today. After the DVX100, I was mesmerized by HD from the HVX200, and then the ability to use interchangeable lenses on the AF100. Each time, those cameras pushed me to tell more stories.

That brings me to the latest chapter in my career, and that was when I invested in the Scarlet in November of 2011. At that point, I felt I needed to experience first hand, what working with RAW video was all about. From the moment I shot the first clip, to the moment I opened the file in Redcine, the rush of emotion that consumed me brought me back to unpacking my first computer, or learning photoshop, or screening a film with a real audience. And here it is, something so revolutionary that came to fruition because of someones vision and dedication. I know you hate being compared to Mr. Jobs, but what you have both accomplished amidst all the nay sayers is nothing short of amazing. Having an Epic now and soon Dragon, I know it will keep pushing me to other chapters.

For me, RED is more than color science, or the resolution, or dynamic range (which are feats in themselves). RED to me is passion, a culture, as well as innovation. This is whats sets this company apart from all the others. Some like it, some don't, but you certainly can't ignore it.

You must feel discouraged at times reading these threads, but rest assured there are plenty more like myself that never forget our roots, and mine are firmly planted in RED soil.

Well said Bob!

 

[Michael Dalton]

This is one thing we apparently have in common. It drives me crazy to wait. Being late is the most discomforting thing I can think of. The past year has been hell for me. Truly. The only thing I can say is that when it is finally done... you tend to forget how long you waited. Mercifully...

Jim

Anything worth having, is worth waiting for! You delivered 4k years ahead of everyone else, you've given us 5k, and now 6k. How can you possible apologize for giving us the future. Especially one that we can upgrade!

 

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

Jon,

what I am saying is that there is always a price to be paid in Baking in Images in Camera, there is NO way back, and if and when there is one, is not a nice road to take, and the end results will never yield as nice results as if going back to the original CLEAN RAW files, so I avoid all Filters that Bake an image In camera when possible.

...post-filtration gives you flexibility, but not the same quality.