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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon misconceptions and clarification...

Guys, seriously this is getting kind of silly. Feels like everyone is going to extremes. No need in my opinion because those who know what they seek in terms of image quality will take the necessary steps to get there. I can see where Carruth is coming from now. He has a valid point.

Red makes great cameras, Arri makes great cameras, Sony makes great cameras. Pick the one that suits your needs. Simple. Jim and his team keep pushing the envelope. Some dig their tools, some don't. personally, I've always liked what Jim and Jarred have been able to accomplish with their cameras. I'm a loyal customer. But I try to keep an open mind when it comes to what tools to use to accomplish a given project. It allows me to remove the emotion from the equation and choose based on the actual needs of that project. It's possible to love Red, Arri, Canon, Sony, Panasonic, and Blackmagic. If you love cameras, it's possible to find good qualities in more than one camera.

Jim responds because he's passionate, no doubt about that. But honestly, I'd rather he continue to keeping pushing the envelope because it means more options for all of us.

Enjoy this amazing time, don't lose sleep over the silly stuff.
 
I got a call from Disney thanking me because they were tired of hearing that "period pieces" needed to be shot on film. 42 was proof that that was a myth.

Rick... I have no idea what your point is. Spell it out. Up to now all you are doing is pissing me off.

Jim

Rick Darge said:
I've just worked with Red imagery so much over the past 5 years that I can tell when something was shot on Red. That's all I was conveying with that statement. I've shot with the 5D, Alexa and now the Blackmagic camera quite a bit that I can usually spot a commercial, music video or feature film when it has been shot on those cameras as well. I'm talking about the inherent nature that all camera sensors share, and that is a very specific response to color, light, and noise. Every camera has it's own STANK and to say that the Red cameras are completely free of this STANK seems counterproductive to me in the open discussion about this idea of filtration and baked in looks. But to each is his own a
Click to expand...
 
Well I think it's perty obvious that the dragon will be the greatest camera ever made, no fan boy here ... just plain fact. What I need are the skills to take advantage of it, and I'm feeling fairly inadequate on that count right now. I really appreciate the red teams comments on this site, and the red users that are fully utilizing the camera are helping me to learn exponentially - maybe I might catch up and be able to do something great too.
 
By the way Jim, just re-read the quote in your signature about cameras and to me, that's what it's all about. If I shoot a video of a special moment of my daughter's life with an iphone, it has frozen that moment in time and the iphone is the best camera in the world in that moment.
 
Rick Darge said:
It's interesting that people talk about the Alexa having a built in baked in look with their low-con filter but nobody talks about how the 'LOOK' of Red is in itself, a burnt in, baked in image. Red footage in its current state isn't a neutral image. It has a LOOK. I can spot Red footage in a heartbeat. Like a vintage wine. I can smell it. Red images do something in the mids and highs that other cameras don't do and for me and my eyes, it's a dead giveaway. I'm trying to stay as camera agnostic as possible these days but acting like Red is a completely neutral camera in its look seems silly to me. It's sensor by nature gives an inherent look that can't be removed or altered in post.
Click to expand...

I get what you're saying. But go to my online reel at www.ericjhaase.com and tell me which projects were shot with which cameras.
 
Jon MIchael Puntervold said:
Do you also dissagree with the quality difference of a piano and a syntheziser? Looks done optically looks different, more organic, and less synthetic then digital post filters...
Click to expand...

Jon,

what I am saying is that there is always a price to be paid in Baking in Images in Camera, there is NO way back, and if and when there is one, is not a nice road to take, and the end results will never yield as nice results as if going back to the original CLEAN RAW files, so I avoid all Filters that Bake an image In camera when possible.


Blair S. Paulsen said:
First of all I might say the "major" attraction rather than the "only" attraction of putting a low-con filter in the OLPF stack is getting immediate results. Some might prefer that look as a matter of taste and if RED chooses to offer a filter for mounting in front of the sensor I'd probably put one in my bag of tricks. That said, I'd much rather use the filter tray in the mattebox to select just the right effect for each shot.

Optical filtration, digital processing, lens selection, etc are all parts of the toolkit - what I consider different today than a decade ago is the digital processing sophistication expands options - but there are still some things better done optically, no argument there.

BTW, for those folks calling out Alexa movies as examples, does anyone really think those flicks weren't expertly massaged in DI?

Cheers - #19
Click to expand...


Yes Blair, speed is always a matter of taste as well, and of course convenience and money, but as I said above, with RAW capture in Digital, for me IN camera filtering is a last resource, or to be used with certainty of what I am about to do will forever Bake my original RAW, and with some filters there is truly no going back, for this as said above I'll use them only if absolute need to, otherwise I stay with a clean RAW to do as I please, time and again.


In the hands of a professional Colorist, the RAW R3D can be made in to absolutely anything , and made look like anything and or any look seen captured with any other camera, any stock of FILM emulation included!!


The problem most have is that like my self they are Aces of all trades with their camera, and in BIG difference form me, some don't understand the process and their limitation in processing this files, and for this they don't get the results that they could otherwise get.
 
Dear Jim,

I hope you don't think I'm rambling, but there is a point to my story....

I had a terrible time in school growing up. I grew up in a small town and sadly, they weren't too kind to minorities like myself. I became a little reclusive and found solace in technology and the arts. While teachers continued their assault on my academics, only one teacher let me show my true colors, and that was my art teacher. I gravitated towards visual arts and graphics. I finally found comfort in knowing I found a voice and that I was able to express myself. As much as I loved my film camera, it was the digital video camera that spear headed my new career path. My love for visual story telling was materialized because I was able borrow a neighbours VCR player which I tethered to mine to cobble together a primitive editing station. My parents had no clue what I was up to, but to me, the clouds had just ripped open and the sun had finally shown upon me.

When I look back on certain milestones in my life (aside from meeting my wife , and having my child,) I can unequivocally account them to specific technological advances and achievements. I cannot deny Apple computers had a profound impact on my life. Because of Apple, I was present with the emergence of Photoshop, Illustrator, Quark etc. Again, all part of the visual story telling palette. Because of my history using Nikon cameras, I remember grinning when I bought my D70, then D80, then D200, D3, and now D800E. All the while, finding work at ground breaking companies, like Alias|Wavefront, Autodesk, and IMAX. The Panasonic DVX100 was mind blowing to me. Most importantly I found a community that shared my passion, DVXUser. Wow, I found some amazing mentors on those forums that are still my friends today. After the DVX100, I was mesmerized by HD from the HVX200, and then the ability to use interchangeable lenses on the AF100. Each time, those cameras pushed me to tell more stories.

That brings me to the latest chapter in my career, and that was when I invested in the Scarlet in November of 2011. At that point, I felt I needed to experience first hand, what working with RAW video was all about. From the moment I shot the first clip, to the moment I opened the file in Redcine, the rush of emotion that consumed me brought me back to unpacking my first computer, or learning photoshop, or screening a film with a real audience. And here it is, something so revolutionary that came to fruition because of someones vision and dedication. I know you hate being compared to Mr. Jobs, but what you have both accomplished amidst all the nay sayers is nothing short of amazing. Having an Epic now and soon Dragon, I know it will keep pushing me to other chapters.

For me, RED is more than color science, or the resolution, or dynamic range (which are feats in themselves). RED to me is passion, a culture, as well as innovation. This is whats sets this company apart from all the others. Some like it, some don't, but you certainly can't ignore it.

You must feel discouraged at times reading these threads, but rest assured there are plenty more like myself that never forget our roots, and mine are firmly planted in RED soil.
 
Just noticed Rick Darge is now a banned user... After what seemed to be a logical and understandable opinion standpoint. I thought we were all on the same team of making films with the best tool for the job. That IS the responsibility of a Cinematographer after all. Without being able to talk about the pro's and con's how could any camera manufacturer learn what it's market is asking for?

It seems as though if you're not RED all the way you're in the wrong? I sure hope not.
 
Richie Trimble said:
Just noticed Rick Darge is now a banned user... After what seemed to be a logical and understandable opinion standpoint. I thought we were all on the same team of making films with the best tool for the job. That IS the responsibility of a Cinematographer after all. Without being able to talk about the pro's and con's how could any camera manufacturer learn what it's market is asking for?

It seems as though if you're not RED all the way you're in the wrong? I sure hope not.
Click to expand...

I agree, right or wrong he stated his opinion, and I don't think he meant any disrespect. The banning doesn't seem warranted. I'm sure Rick is for RED, but not exclusively.
 
Somehow yapping on like a Chihuahua about the predictability of RAW footage, while the giant upon whose shoulders we all stand muses on his possible retirement on the eve of his greatest achievement doesn't seem like the most sensitive timing...sometimes closing the door on little dogs is a reasonable alternative, to be able to hear yourself think. I'm sure that door is only closed temporarily and not worth getting too alarmed over...

You can't seem to help but follow where your spirit takes you, Jim - whether that place is back into the mad, mad vortex of creation or onto a contemplative life on the beach, or some combination of the two...I'm sure all will be revealed in time. Probably sooner than later.

No one really wants to see you retire. But I'm sure everyone who has tracked this project throughout the years, wishes you the greatest health and happiness, however that is achieved.
 
Jim,

This thread is a great start to help folks understand Dragon and clear up misconceptions.

What I think also would be very helpful would be to start a new thread which lists simple bullet points of what exactly is different about the upcoming Dragon as compared to EPIC. I think there are a lot of people who hear the watered down main differences, such as DR, 6K, 100fps... but people who have been paying attention know there is a lot more to Dragon, such as improved noise floor, new color science, new hardware other than the sensor, new user adjustable res/framerates, etc.

I think a simple list would help people in the industry understand just how significant this new camera system will be.
 
Casey Green said:
Jim,

This thread is a great start to help folks understand Dragon and clear up misconceptions.

What I think also would be very helpful would be to start a new thread which lists simple bullet points of what exactly is different about the upcoming Dragon as compared to EPIC. I think there are a lot of people who hear the watered down main differences, such as DR, 6K, 100fps... but people who have been paying attention know there is a lot more to Dragon, such as improved noise floor, new color science, new hardware other than the sensor, new user adjustable res/framerates, etc.

I think a simple list would help people in the industry understand just how significant this new camera system will be.
Click to expand...

Arn't the '3 stops of extra DR' and 'improved noise floor' the same thing? It's because the noise floor is lower that you get an extra 2 stops of DR down there. If the noise floor was the same as MX you would only have 1 stop of extra DR in the highlights. Or am I missing something?
 
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Yes, there are major improvements to the noise floor, but what exactly does that mean?

One thing is that in many situations, Dragon will have a cleaner image with less noise. So, with increased resolution (6k), files will not necessarily exponentially increased in size. We may see standard REDCODE compression settings set higher than that of EPIC-MX. These are the details that I think should be listed in an easy to understand list. We all know how competing companies like to start rumors. Best to get the facts out now of how significant this upgrade is.
 
I dont yet understand how the Dragon chip works with its ability to maintain DR when the ASA is changed as opposed to the fixed exposure of the MX chip. BUT with Dragons improved S/N ratio and two extra stops in the shadows I cant see why you cant underexpose a stop losing a stop in the shadows for an another stop in the highlights if a shot requires. I am looking forward to putting Dragon through its paces.
 
Bob,

A touching story similar to my own in many ways.

David



Bob Gundu said:
Dear Jim,

I hope you don't think I'm rambling, but there is a point to my story....

I had a terrible time in school growing up. I grew up in a small town and sadly, they weren't too kind to minorities like myself. I became a little reclusive and found solace in technology and the arts. While teachers continued their assault on my academics, only one teacher let me show my true colors, and that was my art teacher. I gravitated towards visual arts and graphics. I finally found comfort in knowing I found a voice and that I was able to express myself. As much as I loved my film camera, it was the digital video camera that spear headed my new career path. My love for visual story telling was materialized because I was able borrow a neighbours VCR player which I tethered to mine to cobble together a primitive editing station. My parents had no clue what I was up to, but to me, the clouds had just ripped open and the sun had finally shown upon me.

When I look back on certain milestones in my life (aside from meeting my wife , and having my child,) I can unequivocally account them to specific technological advances and achievements. I cannot deny Apple computers had a profound impact on my life. Because of Apple, I was present with the emergence of Photoshop, Illustrator, Quark etc. Again, all part of the visual story telling palette. Because of my history using Nikon cameras, I remember grinning when I bought my D70, then D80, then D200, D3, and now D800E. All the while, finding work at ground breaking companies, like Alias|Wavefront, Autodesk, and IMAX. The Panasonic DVX100 was mind blowing to me. Most importantly I found a community that shared my passion, DVXUser. Wow, I found some amazing mentors on those forums that are still my friends today. After the DVX100, I was mesmerized by HD from the HVX200, and then the ability to use interchangeable lenses on the AF100. Each time, those cameras pushed me to tell more stories.

That brings me to the latest chapter in my career, and that was when I invested in the Scarlet in November of 2011. At that point, I felt I needed to experience first hand, what working with RAW video was all about. From the moment I shot the first clip, to the moment I opened the file in Redcine, the rush of emotion that consumed me brought me back to unpacking my first computer, or learning photoshop, or screening a film with a real audience. And here it is, something so revolutionary that came to fruition because of someones vision and dedication. I know you hate being compared to Mr. Jobs, but what you have both accomplished amidst all the nay sayers is nothing short of amazing. Having an Epic now and soon Dragon, I know it will keep pushing me to other chapters.

For me, RED is more than color science, or the resolution, or dynamic range (which are feats in themselves). RED to me is passion, a culture, as well as innovation. This is whats sets this company apart from all the others. Some like it, some don't, but you certainly can't ignore it.

You must feel discouraged at times reading these threads, but rest assured there are plenty more like myself that never forget our roots, and mine are firmly planted in RED soil.
Click to expand...
 
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