DRAGON - ITS THE REAL DEAL !!!!

[Nick Morrison]

I don't think they are keen to let their sauce out of the bottle but it's not hard to figure out, Arri has been working with and studying film emulsions for decades, it's pretty obvious they designed their low pass filter pack to emulate the slight halation that happens on film when light from bright point sources bounce back into the film. That's why film is designed with anti-halation layer. I'm not critical of the Alexa for this, it's a nice touch, one that I often emulate on my Epic.

How are you emulating this look? With 1/4 Classic Soft, or other similar diffusion? Just curious. Thanks.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Yes, lighting can be used to make someone look better, worse or depict them with accuracy and to deliberately do any one of those things requires skills that should not be discounted... Particularly in the context of a camera discussion.

But what does that have to do with Dragon?

All hail the Red team and their incredible new baby!

It has to do with the fact that this first Dragon test as shot with no lights and no crew, just Mark by himself - and we should remember that when evaluating the images. Not only no lights, but he went out there looking for challenges/problems. You're kinda seeing the worst images Marc could produce, not the best he could, with a Dragon camera.

 

[Mike P.]

How are you emulating this look? With 1/4 Classic Soft, or other similar diffusion? Just curious. Thanks.

I too would like to know what you're using to emulate the bloom/low-con look of Alexa, Evin... I've tried to produce similar looks with filters and have had varying results (and none that are quite up to Alexa's out of the box awesomeness.) The thing is, Alexa footage doesn't lack detail... You say softness/halation filter, but it actually upscales better than RED 4k footage does and it's only 2.88k (that is to say, Alexa 2.88k footage at 4k looks [as sharp as] Scarlet 4k footage at 4k***)

**EDIT: Without applying sharpening to the Scarlet footage, which the Alexa may be doing automatically/internally behind the scenes?

 

[Bob Gundu]

Mike, those are some serious fighten words.

(that is to say, Alexa 2.88k footage at 4k looks sharper than Scarlet 4k footage at 4k.)

 

[Ivan Kovax]

It has to do with the fact that this first Dragon test as shot with no lights and no crew, just Mark by himself - and we should remember that when evaluating the images. Not only no lights, but he went out there looking for challenges/problems. You're kinda seeing the worst images Marc could produce, not the best he could, with a Dragon camera.

My only foray into any debate here will be this: Many, many professionals shoot wonderful images with only natural lighting and creative colouring in their particular niche so to reframe this as a discussion around lighting makes absolutely no sense.

Thanks,

Ivan

 

[Matt Ryan]

I too would like to know what you're using to emulate the bloom/low-con look of Alexa, Evin... I've tried to produce similar looks with filters and have had varying results (and none that are quite up to Alexa's out of the box awesomeness.) The thing is, Alexa footage doesn't lack detail... You say softness/halation filter, but it actually upscales better than RED 4k footage does and it's only 2.88k (that is to say, Alexa 2.88k footage at 4k looks sharper than Scarlet 4k footage at 4k.)

Try the Hollywood Black Magic 1/8th or 1/4. You will love the look.

I sold Timur my second HBM 1/8th and he loves it. Retains detail but gives a soft halation look to highlights that isn't over the top IMPO.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

I too would like to know what you're using to emulate the bloom/low-con look of Alexa, Evin... I've tried to produce similar looks with filters and have had varying results (and none that are quite up to Alexa's out of the box awesomeness.) The thing is, Alexa footage doesn't lack detail... You say softness/halation filter, but it actually upscales better than RED 4k footage does and it's only 2.88k (that is to say, Alexa 2.88k footage at 4k looks sharper than Scarlet 4k footage at 4k.)

mike you must be blind or... i can shoot Scarlet vs Alexa resolution test tomorrow and post it here..what happens if Scarlet 4K way sharper than Alexa what you gonna say then..

 

[Nick Morrison]

I too would like to know what you're using to emulate the bloom/low-con look of Alexa, Evin... I've tried to produce similar looks with filters and have had varying results (and none that are quite up to Alexa's out of the box awesomeness.) The thing is, Alexa footage doesn't lack detail... You say softness/halation filter, but it actually upscales better than RED 4k footage does and it's only 2.88k (that is to say, Alexa 2.88k footage at 4k looks sharper than Scarlet 4k footage at 4k.)

I'm curious what Evin is using too. We've been matching Alexa by using 1/4 Classic Soft on our Scarlets. You can see how this looks in the video below (look at the interviews only). Army Wives is shot on Alexa, and if anything the Scarlet footage looks sharper IMHO.

Try the Hollywood Black Magic 1/8th or 1/4. You will love the look.

I sold Timur my second HBM 1/8th and he loves it. Retains detail but gives a soft halation look to highlights that isn't over the top IMPO.

Yup, HBM is Classic Soft + 1/8 Black Promist. If you don't want the black specs of Promist (and the extra halation), then Classic Soft by itself works too.

 

[dewaldaukema]

"Red Dragon now has the best highlight fall off I have ever seen from any digital camera. Beating film! Big call I know, but after shooting film and pushing it around in telecine chains for more than a decade, I can categorically say that this new sensor has a better range than film ever had. "
Coming from Mr Toya, whose showreel should be viewed, it is a pretty clear statement.
Anyone who judges DR, highlight rolloff or any image related qualities on a Vimeo clip should go back to film school. Year 1.
Kind Regards

 

[Evin Grant]

Usually a classic soft or a Classic black soft 1/8 or holywood black magic 1/4. As to upressing the Alexa I've only ever shot prores, so I couldn't say, but projected at 4K I'd bet the difference is pretty dramatic. Another note on filters is that I almost always tune my filter pack to the presentation and use. Although I prefer the look of the Classic softs, BCS and HBM filters a straight 1/8 low con (not ultracon) is probably the best match to a clean Alexa. There are instances though where the overall color of a scene can "wash" over the entire Alexa image, it's subtle but one of the side effects of being mated to that filter all the time. The reason that it's hard to match the halation look all the time is that different lenses and even different apertures will affect the performance of these filters as the effects become more or less magnified and resolved. To achieve a truly uniform look you'd need to copy Arri and put the filter behind the lens close to the imaging plane. I personally prefer to keep my options open.

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

Evan,

You are correct. Part of the "allure " of Alexa can be accredited to the filter and the lower rez. But I will always say that we can get 'there' with Epic with post processing. My little experience with Dragon allows me to say that we can now get 'anywhere' we want. as with film stocks we manipulate them to what we want. It is an exciting time..... Ignore the bullshit internet chatter, play with the infinite choices and create some great films.....

That is what this is all about....

Epic ha allowed me to shoot personal films and also Spiderman and Transformers 4. How cool is that....

Cheers,

Peter

 

[David Battistella]

People are posting in this thread that gaining 3 stops is nothing. DO we all understand that how difficult that is? Or how difficult that has been for all camera manufacturers? When you get to the top end (like in F1 for example) it starts to get down to the very fine point of engineering to get the extra 1/100th of a second off a lap time. It's a bolt here, a belt there, a suspension rod, a tire change, aerodynamics. etc.

For a company (RED) to get three more stops of latitude is no small task. A lot must have gone into squeezing out the extra.

If any company did this I would be impressed and tip my hat to them. But I am happy it's RED because its what I own and shoot on. To have expected 20 usable stops is a bit beyond engineering possibilities or somewhere in the next five years maybe.

But you don't hit a magic button, throw pixie dust and wave a wand to make this stuff happen, people have spent years working on this.

David

 

[Evin Grant]

Peter, to me the the Alexa is just boring, unfortunately that's actually it's appeal to many I work with. I find even the MX Epic footage much more interesting and exciting, as well as higher quality but it does require the user to understand the technology and make informed decisions, something the Alexa demands very little of for better or worse.

I love my Epic's images and Dragon's seem to take that an order of magnitude farther but the name of the game these days is productivity! So the easier it is to get a image right out of the camera that works the easier time I have convincing producers to use my Epic.

 

[Brice Ansel]

I'm so tired to read about the Alexa on RedUser.
I'm not saying it's a bad camera, I'm just not an Alexa user.
I don't give a shit about it, so as the others.

I guess some would have prefer a clean showreel , like every compagny use to do when lauching a new tool.
I'm not a big fan of Red marketing, but this time I aplaud JIm and Jarred for their transparency.
By letting a free mind stressing a camera who's not on the market yet.
I think it show a lot of respect from Red team part to the RedUsers, and a big confidence in what they acomplished with their new sensor.
So move on grumpy people.
B.

 

[Jarred Land]

Thanks Brice... appreciate the kind words.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Know what, I had decided to resist the Dragon.

Now I have decided to be attracted to it...

REDis changing the industry, no doubt.
And for the most, to the better.

Of course that is not applauded by those who do not want to be changed.

Like Brice, I dig that Mark got the chance to mess with it and was allowed to post his results.

Besides being an excellent photographer, I dig his approach to post.

Arguably you do not push every theoretical bit of juice out of absulutely every image that way, but so what.
If you get the parts you want and need out and he seems to be a happy camper, THAT is more of a testimony than any numbers to me.

NOW

The motionmount...


Huge congrats!

 

[Milano Questa]

People are posting in this thread that gaining 3 stops is nothing. DO we all understand that how difficult that is? Or how difficult that has been for all camera manufacturers? When you get to the top end (like in F1 for example) it starts to get down to the very fine point of engineering to get the extra 1/100th of a second off a lap time. It's a bolt here, a belt there, a suspension rod, a tire change, aerodynamics. etc.

For a company (RED) to get three more stops of latitude is no small task. A lot must have gone into squeezing out the extra.

If any company did this I would be impressed and tip my hat to them. But I am happy it's RED because its what I own and shoot on. To have expected 20 usable stops is a bit beyond engineering possibilities or somewhere in the next five years maybe.

But you don't hit a magic button, throw pixie dust and wave a wand to make this stuff happen, people have spent years working on this.

David

Plenty of industrial / machine vision sensors have been capable of 20+ DR for quite some time now.

 

[David Battistella]

Thats great, but no one is putting them in my hands to make a movie.

David

Plenty of industrial / machine vision sensors have been capable of 20+ DR for quite some time now.

 

[Mark Toia]

It is just the in camera gamma curve or the grade. Other cameras handle that with their own gamma spaces and curves in camera.

Please look at this and let us know if you are still puzzled (applied a simple curve to roll off highlights... this can even be done in camera if needs be).

ANd this is grading from just a simple compressed mov file. Imagine the flexibility one is afforded in raw.

I could have performed many different tricks on the images to get my desired look.... but I wasn't asked to bullshit and hide things, And I didn't want to.... isn't that what tests are all about. ? Push, bend, break, twist and see what goes wrong... I did this and the worst images I got I presented. Which look pretty bloody good for a break test !... If I was shooting for perfection then what would you have learnt out of all this... Nothing.

But hey... Do i really care about some of these debates, No... I'm finding a number of them quite comedic to be honest.

Because I know that a lot of the scenes we were shooting looked way way worse in real life compared to what I presented to you, specially the car hight light shots, I seriously couldn't see anything through the bright glare coming from that car with my very own eyes, I was squinting the whole time !, it was like looking into a mirror dead into the sun ! to see an actual usable image come from it, is astounding to say the least. To have a small bit of clipping on what was a complete wash out of light is amazing to me. Film, Alexa, Sony , they all clip at this end of the spectrum, so don't fool yourselves. What Dragon delivered from that actual test was seriously way above expectations from any camera.

That little pink tinge in the highlight that some people are talking about, was gone with just a touch of a button in RCX, which I forgot to tick... sorry. Done , fixed and gone in less than a second. And I know we wont see it again anyway, as it's already been worked on to be never seen again.
And I know for a fact, that the camera I was using is not what the end user will get. It's still a test camera, There are things going on in the background guaranteeing even better results. (that I can't talk about, so don't ask)

Lets just all applaud the fact that RED have made an amazing sensor, that will know doubt get even better over time with our free upgrades... Free !

This post isn't directed at you Ivan, because you touched up those images, It just started me off on this tangent.

 

[John Marchant]

Well said Mark. It's a shame so many people misunderstand the concept of a test...