Why lower your rates and equipment down to nothing just to kill the industry

[Scott Crawley]

Bob Gundu has turned my head "to the future" in another thread. Thanks Bob.

Ben, I see why you have made storytelling part of your work.

 

[Bing Bailey]

only on planet film is $950 a day considered some kind of slave wage. every other craft or job people would kill to make that kind of money. I don't think filmmakers work harder than nurses but nurses sure as hell don't make $950 a day. sure nurses don't buy equipment but even so thats a lot of money - I'm sure the people who shot film felt the same way about these dp's with their reds coming in and getting jobs that were going to shoot film but are now shooting red because its cheaper and still high quality. you did it to them and now a new group is doing it to you. it doesn't stop.

everything is getting cheaper because the revenue possibility for projects is in the toilet so everything has to come down in price or not be made at all. the same happened in the music business. lots of studios got stuck with 100's of thousands invested in equipment and got kicked in the nuts by small studios with pro tools. the next wave of people will do it to with their black magic cameras. because most people are happy with good enough. a producers job is the get the best deals they can without sacrificing too much quality. producers have to work with lower budgets now than they ever have before. it runs down hill. if a producer gets someone who doesn't do a good job they won't be hired for much after

 

[Joe Minuni]

only on planet film is $950 a day considered some kind of slave wage. every other craft or job people would kill to make that kind of money. I don't think filmmakers work harder than nurses but nurses sure as hell don't make $950 a day.

Yes but most people I know don't always have the next job lined up back to back. Ideally yes, but there are times where work can be hard to find. You have to charge accordingly if you want to pay the bills every month and one job falls through

 

[Rob Gardner]

I think people are missing what is going on in the level of business above them. The old model of middle-cost productions has severely shrunk. Reality television has eaten up a tremendous amount of air time that used to be filled with dramas and substantial documentaries. Cable television is in the ascendency and Netfilix has shown that new horizons are opening, but with all these outlets, the price per minute producers are making is not going to go up.

Middle level movies in the $10 to $20 million dollar range are much rarer as the very expensive or the very cheap fill out the menu. Look at Spike Lee with his hand out on Kickstarter. Look at Soderbergh and Spielburg talking about the difficulty in getting films funded. That means that production work at the very high end is available, but a solid middle class income is no longer guaranteed for many filmmakers.

Where does this leave the producers who are hiring all these cinematographers or renting their cameras? Many of them have gone away and left the business or adapted to the low end. Many have been replaced by young producers who have no quality references because they have never known anything but the production slave-ships. So we are seeing a lot of the race to the bottom.

I recently finished a television film in the US after producing American television in Eastern Europe for some years. My American crew was half the size of the European crew we were accustomed to working with and many compromises had to be made, but the production quality remained high, relative to the budget, because my own brand depends on that. But the compromises included working outside of the unions and guilds and promoting people up to first chair that might not have been quite ready for it. We kept the days reasonable in length, we fed everybody well, and we pushed for quality.

In the end, shooting in the States was worth it, but it was very hard. If the only thing important to me had been the bottom line, I would not have shot the film this way.

But what would a producer do who had no experience in higher budget work, whose entire reference was cheap production? He is going to assume that this is everybody else’s reference too, and he will hire anybody he can for as little as possible and ask for equipment for free because that’s what he knows and because he knows he can deliver and his client will accept it.

I think people need to be as shrewd and realistic as possible in business and look very hard at what happens to your self respect and your reputation when you wear cheap on your sleeve. It’s a hard old world out there…

 

[Scott Crawley]

I don't think filmmakers work harder than nurses but nurses sure as hell don't make $950 a day. sure nurses don't buy equipment but even so thats a lot of money

It is a lot of money but consider the overhead. It costs money to bring the gear that you are so casually discount. Loans, interest, insurance etc.... the gear is less expensive than it used to be, it is not free. A 950/ day rate reflects the cost of the gear. It used to be much higher. If you want to be able to command rates above that level, YOU have to be the source of value. (You also have to be able to demonstrate that value to prospective clients. That is the rub.)

I have experience in Nursing and am also an owner/operator so I can speak directly to your example. The main difference between the two is for Nursing the investment was in education as opposed to all of the electronic gear. Education holds its value longer and in some cases can be paid off sooner. It is by far, a better investment.

... And as Joe points out, you can work every day. If you produce at all you know that the more consecutive days of work you can guarantee a contractor, the lower you can negotiate the daily rate.

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

charge on talent.. not on gear..

if dudes are hawking 900$ rentals with all that gear and including themselves as dp/operator...

they are just fishing for their next buck.. and clearly arent worth anything more than their low ball deals.. let them take those shitty jobs... they probably dont have good crafty anyways.. and Im sure your sick of pizza

if you put yourself in that low rate bracket... then you know your only worth that low rate, your work probably proves that.. and you will most likely be stuck there for a long time...

if you think or know your skills are worth more... then you will charge more and be compensated for it..

the producers or whoever, that are hiring craigslist jokers dont care about how well you can shoot or light.. they just want your gear you paid good money for, on the cheap.. and the suckers will go for it, thinking its their IN..

dont get me wrong.. I do my fair share of no budget, indie projects to continue learning and honing my skills.. but I am very selective on the projects and who the directors are, and I do it all for free.. and i dont sell them on the equipment I own.. I dont even tell them I have equipment.. I just show them what I have done.. and if they like it and want me to shoot for them.. then Ill say.. Oh hey.. instead of shooting on a 5d.. how about we use a red..

 

[Peter Majtan]

Right-click and open in new tab/window for full-res...:

:sifone: Peter

 

[Sarah C.]

Ug, yeah guys this is a conundrum. I am guilty on the producerly side. (And I am sure some/many of you have worn similar hat). Just gotta go for the best combination of skill, talent, and rate to hire a DP or any crew position.

It's a basic supply/demand equation--sort of not basic either. It's what the market for the goods will bear. MAYBE... If everyone is being employed at $2k/day then no one would go less. If most were at $2k and a few not working you might see them in the $1500-2K range. No one would bother to drop to $950 if they can get $1500 guaranteed. But there are no guarantees.

I believe this is like the triangle of production. Good/fast/cheap... can't have all three, select two.

No guarantees! A scenario...
I just looked at two RedUser steadicam operators for potential hire today. Interestingly enough the more talented Op with the better reel was more flexible than the mediocre Op who wanted more money/fixed rate. No brainer, go with the better talent and more flexible personality! (Still looking though, scheduling didn't work). Not going a step further with Mr. Inflexible.

My point is it is all about what the market will bear. If I can get solid talent and equipment at a lower rate I'll do it. Flip side, I won't go cheap for someone, gear who can't deliver the quality. So that does really mess up things for you who are talented, skilled, have exceptional equipment and needing a really good rate. If someone else has the same thing (or close enough) at a lower rate, then well... you know the scenario.

Can I say this? What you get for your day rate is NOT indicative of your value to the show or what level your talent. It has everything to do with the deal you have with the producer. So don't be shy about a lower-then-normal rate to get a good project.

HTH

 

[Neil Dearman]

What kills me is when you rent your stuff out and after a couple of times they want a "friendly discount". That and people that don't have insurance!!! It has gotten so bad that I heard that one guy in Atlanta charging $450 for a full Epic Rig!!!!

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

I think people are missing what is going on in the level of business above them. The old model of middle-cost productions has severely shrunk. Reality television has eaten up a tremendous amount of air time that used to be filled with dramas and substantial documentaries. Cable television is in the ascendency and Netfilix has shown that new horizons are opening, but with all these outlets, the price per minute producers are making is not going to go up.

Middle level movies in the $10 to $20 million dollar range are much rarer as the very expensive or the very cheap fill out the menu. Look at Spike Lee with his hand out on Kickstarter. Look at Soderbergh and Spielburg talking about the difficulty in getting films funded. That means that production work at the very high end is available, but a solid middle class income is no longer guaranteed for many filmmakers.

Where does this leave the producers who are hiring all these cinematographers or renting their cameras? Many of them have gone away and left the business or adapted to the low end. Many have been replaced by young producers who have no quality references because they have never known anything but the production slave-ships. So we are seeing a lot of the race to the bottom.

I recently finished a television film in the US after producing American television in Eastern Europe for some years. My American crew was half the size of the European crew we were accustomed to working with and many compromises had to be made, but the production quality remained high, relative to the budget, because my own brand depends on that. But the compromises included working outside of the unions and guilds and promoting people up to first chair that might not have been quite ready for it. We kept the days reasonable in length, we fed everybody well, and we pushed for quality.

In the end, shooting in the States was worth it, but it was very hard. If the only thing important to me had been the bottom line, I would not have shot the film this way.

But what would a producer do who had no experience in higher budget work, whose entire reference was cheap production? He is going to assume that this is everybody else’s reference too, and he will hire anybody he can for as little as possible and ask for equipment for free because that’s what he knows and because he knows he can deliver and his client will accept it.

I think people need to be as shrewd and realistic as possible in business and look very hard at what happens to your self respect and your reputation when you wear cheap on your sleeve. It’s a hard old world out there…

Bingo. If everyone takes time to read and digest this post, we'd stop ranting (nothing wrong with that! i do it quite often heh heh), and get down to a new style of working in this new world with its new dynamics. Overall though, NO DOUBT, this is the BEST TIME EVER for independent content creators. Now, if only something like ODEMAX takes off, and helps creators make some revenue as well, that'd be most excellent.

 

[George Butterfield]

What part of, "It's a free World", do you not understand or agree with?

 

[Sarah C.]

(I'm not a DP/camera owner, so my view is simply from producer side)

Here is an idea. If no one advertised rates and just listed equipment and reel then every deal would be custom.

That would actually help the low-ballers have a chance at a better rate. When you advertise for a rate no producer is going to offer anything higher. In fact, even as I look at that guy for $950(I'm not shopping for a package, but in theory...) I think to myself: can I find someone for less if this guy advertises that rate? Will I be able to get someone else by simply saying, "Well this guy wants $950. If you can beat it I'll hire you." I won't bother asking someone who's reel I don't like. So I am looking for equiv. or better qualified. And if I had to beat the bush, spend all my waking hours to get equiv or better for $950 or less I would. And I bet I could. So by advertising it low to attract a potential producer, you are not helping yourself. And you are not helping others either. So it isn't a win or win-win it is a lose-lose. Only one who wins is the producer. (Should I have told you all that???)

Oh, back to the reel thing. Producers are not stupid(wait... some are). Most of the DP's here are worth a high rate(won't stop a producer to work on you for another rate). There are a few DP's here who are not worthy of a cell phone camera let alone an Epic. If you are mediocre and not getting work, putting yourself at a crazy low rate still won't help. Same as putting yourself at a very high rate to look impressive. You gotta have something to sell other than just gear and price. Too much competition. Too many talented people who are available and willing to make a deal instead of sitting at home wishing for a gig with an ideal rate.

What kills me is when you rent your stuff out and after a couple of times they want a "friendly discount". That and people that don't have insurance!!! It has gotten so bad that I heard that one guy in Atlanta charging $450 for a full Epic Rig!!!!

 

[Joseph Coleman]

yeh there are more like 5500 - 6000 epic cameras in the world. probably less than half are in the US. not sure where 30,000 came from.

 

[ed ng]

When I bid on a job, it is never just a day rate with everything we have in the office. Primarily because we would never know the full scope of the project without speaking with a producer or creative so the process it more detailed than just simply saying:
Camera with everything for $950
But funny enough I just saw this posting as well:
845 dollars a day gets you ANYTHING listed under my RED and CAMERA / LENS equipment list AS WELL AS THE ENTIRE CP2 LENS KIT and myself on set to DP, operate, or oversee / assist with anything

Things like this hurt the industry as a whole. There are some people that say making fair share is good enough and it's a dog eat dog world but giving away all of your gear including yourself doesn't help.

 

[Nick Gardner]

Here's another way to look at it. When I get a call for a job and they ask my rate, I ask what they have budgeted. Then based on their answer, I negotiate something we are both happy with, or I recommend someone cheaper. I know that a lot of people don't have that luxury, and sometimes when you need a few extra bucks, and the car needs a new engine, you take whatever comes through the door, but if you are the cheap guy, that's all you are ever going to be. They will hire the real deal when they get a big job with a lot on the line. Of course all of this is predicated by you being good at your job, and frankly, is say 90% of the people doing the job aren't worth the big rates. If you are that valuable to production, you will be paid accordingly. There is also the idea of how much is your time worth. It Costs you a grand to get me to spend my time with you rather than my wife and kids. If you want to pay me $600, sorry, I got better things to do.

 

[Joel Arvidsson]

When I bid on a job, it is never just a day rate with everything we have in the office. Primarily because we would never know the full scope of the project without speaking with a producer or creative so the process it more detailed than just simply saying:
Camera with everything for $950

Exactly. Every project is custome as should be for the price. Just spitting out a price sounds like a garage sale. I think its most fair to the clients to only charge for
the gear thats going in to the production. I like to keep it simple kind of like groups not counting each gear by them self. So example available light or bring lights, sound recordings or not, moving camera with crane/dolly/sliders or just tripod/shoulder etc. I rarely tell wich camera i will be using. Also more gear takes more time to move around on set so its impossible to have a fixed rate. If the project is losly defined i think your price should be to. As Nick do asking what the budget is a great way to listen what possibilty and limitation you would have when making your bid. If you know there budget its easy to say in which way you could or cant deliver a good product.

About the market. I think owning gear makes less sence from a economical standpoint but great on an artistic. There is goverment and eu founded resource centers where you can rent an epic with red primes and studio cheap wich i think sting a little bit since i spend alot of effort to build up my studio and gear. Also you could get free workstation, software and office space free for a year and then some years more at low prices. This is great for students coming out from school or anybody starting buissnes while in school. Even school gear and facilitys beeing used in productions. Not so much for the rest of us. Good for me im done with complaining. Have aalready wasted time on that before. Did not do me any good. Also if red would not been a bargin at the first place I would be stuck with a shit codec a couple of years more i would think. Also, eventhoe that playing field is not even we get to use such great tools and the more movies made the better. Its become more mandantory for companys to use movies and update them more rapidly.

 

[Michael J Brennan]

Whatever you do don't compromise on safety. It is everyones responsibility to avoid crew driving home dog tired after a series of 14 hour days.

"The show" need not go on.



Mike Brennan

 

[Timur Civan]

WELL... Aside from price fixing.. there is also the principal of organizing and collective bargaining for the labor side of the equation. Union wages allow minimum compensation to be agreed upon. And still permit the technician to ask for above scale.

I notice that graphic artists communicate and attempt to follow a code of ethics and establish value pricing guidelines.


This problem is not unique to our forum. Personally, i just muddle through and consider each project on its own merits.

I feel that we probably have more equipment and more skilled personnel in this country than there are client dollars to support. But I still live by the credo of "there's always room for one more good one."

The first phase of the race to the bottom rate war darwinism, is that the "grinder" style clients quit accidentally hiring the people who are firm on their prices, causing some of those people to leave the media industry.

The second phase is that the lowest billing vendors are unable to maintain their equipment at the rates they are charging, and have to leave the industry.

The third phase is that the remaining vendors are working on a very tight margin, until demand for their tools and services exceeds supply, allowing them to increase the rates again.

This may take a long time... and is why I discourage anyone from borrowing money to acquire gear for which they do not have a customer.

And of course, remember the supposed russian proverb "Good Enough is the mortal enemy of Best"

Many consumer tools are "Good Enough" for the most ruthless producers. The Best (Cine cameras used by skilled operators) are not needed by them.

I've watched the cycle happen 3 times in the 8 years I been shooting. First DVX100, RED, then the biggest one DSLR. Eventually the cream rises to the top.

That said, I truly believe the blame for the state of the industry is multi faceted. Partial blame rides on less expensive gear, allowing more inexperienced people to "rise" too quickly. Second is the shady producer taking advantage of that new market segment. third is the low baller who accepts the bid, and rewards the client by providing acceptable work for unsustainable rates, eliminating the chances of a proper fair budget ever getting past the accounting department.

Too many people trying to be artists, not enough ditch diggers, engineers, mechanics etc... The US has 3million unfilled mathematic and engineering jobs right now. No one is qualified because film/art/music conservatories are brimming with students. Engineering schools sit with empty class rooms. Look up Mike Rowe's foundation, http://profoundlydisconnected.com/

Fascinating stuff.

If this DP thing doesn't work out, I'm going back to school and becoming an engineer. 200,000$ a year jobs falling off trees...

 

[Björn Benckert]

What part of, "It's a free World", do you not understand or agree with?

I agree with George, and I must say I'm a bit chocked to read all your ranting here.

I been in this industry long enough to have seen people go trough this whole cycle. Most starting out as unpaid production assistants, then working around the camera, getting to DP their first shitty music videos without payment using borrowed gear, then going towards commercial work with low or no charge at first. Some of these guys are now shooting hollywood features and high end commercials with a good month salary for every day on set.

To me that is all fair.

But the funny thing is, that now some of these guys actually has the stomach to lean back, in all of their gained success, and rant about the new young guys that actually are willing to take up work for little or no money. And they think it's crazy that these youngsters even throw in their newly bought camera into free deals.... Like they would not have done so when they where young.

It's quite simple. Today there is a lot of people that can buy an epic or scarlet or other camera. The supply is far higher than the demand. I do not know a single RED camera that is out working full time.

From looking at the rental market, I do not really see a great future, it's very much a race that will hit the floor pretty soon. Far to many people over invested in tech that they will not make the money back from as the turnaround times are getting much much shorter and prices are going down which means that there is more people that can consider to invest.

So I think it's vice not to waste energy on ranting about this, see it for what it is it's an industry that is changing rapidly. Most of you where probably wishing for this change back when you where young an tried to get in.

 

[Sabyasachi Patra]

Desperation comes when people/individual owners mostly invest in accessories/extra lenses etc to have a complete package which can be rented out at one go. The moment you try to get full list of equipment, you are trying to become another rental house. Typically a large rental house can take more pain than an individual. And the strength of an individual owner is not offering full features. Also, by trying to offer all the equipment in a "complete" package, you are stretching yourself. And everyday the equipment sits on the shelf, the pressure mounts. So people try to quote such ridiculous price as 450 or 500 dollars.

It would be a win-win situation where the individual owners/smaller rentals tie up with larger rental houses. So when the client needs an epic, you have that, and you get the other lenses, sliders and dollies, lighting equipment etc from the rental agency. So the rental agency is also happy that their gear is utilised. And when the rental agency gets demands which they can't service, they get it from you or direct it to you. I know of situations where an individual is not able to make an impression to the client for some reasons, but is hired through an agency and does the job. All this requires collaboration and a long term thinking.

Advertising your rates is the worst thing that you can do. Either the client will think you are very cheap and doesn't give you the job or thinks you are too costly and goes somewhere else. In both the cases, you don't even know that a client has considered you as the client has gone away after looking at your rates. So you don't get enough ideas about how big is the market or your positioning in the market. To me that results in you not having enough data for your decision making.

When your camera is not hired/you are not hired with camera as shooter, it is better to go out and shoot for your own personal projects. As artists, all of us have a personal vision that may not be satisfied through the regular commercial assignments. Also, that helps you hone your craft and more importantly your mind is not idle. As they say, when you mind is idle all such negative thoughts come to you. If you are passionate about your personal project, who knows a couple of years down the line, your personal project may bring you more name and fame than any client assignment can get you?