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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Should we buy a used redone mx or a scaret please?

J

jeffrey broulllire

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hello, i teach English for high school students with cognitive learning disabilities, we have received a grant for a/v supplies
and i have been instructed to seek out a red camera package

i joined this forum in hopes of getting feedback as to buy a used redone mx package or get a new scarlet system please.



reasons for going red is that the cameras are sturdy and 'battle tested', are built for video, and seem future proof shooting at 4k

admin likes the idea of a sophisticated camera system to provide students with a fairly steep learning curve

we plan to create a school based production company and hire ourselves out into the public for paying gigs to get real world experience

any encouragement / advice is appreciated


thank you in advance,

jeffrey

i apologize for misspelling scarlet (but can't seem to edit the title)
 
Hate to say it, but I would get neither in that situation. A single camera does not go that far. Think of a classroom with a single book!

Use the budget for multiple less expensive cameras which teams of students can learn the craft with rather than one at a time.
 
^^absolutely agree with you David. Consider the option of buying multiple less expensive systems, so that more students can get in on the hands on action.
 
Black Magic pocket cameras may be a good way to go. it would be like teaching them on super 16 cameras. future proof? no, but there's no such thing anyway.
 
hello, thank you so much for posting advice

the goal of the whole deal is to equip ourselves to be able to shoot someone else's feature film
so there are other departments that the students will be learning to execute

at this point, i 've read a lot of this forum and some of the used redone packages are sketchy
we plan to create a kickstarter and donors choose campaign to finance the camera/editing package
(kickstarter seems not to accept a project that raises money for hardware)

for shooting a feature film 4k: is a scarlett better than a redone mx?

how does a buyer of preowned camera packages protect themselves from bogus stuff?
the last thing i want to do is buy a used camera and have it suck

i agree with the advice of getting more cameras to facilitate more students
(i hadn't really thought of that angle yet so it has me retooling
but i keep coming back to the requirement of billing ourselves out as a company that can compete
with other local companies that can produce a feature film)

i would love to get new/follow up advice/ideas

thanks again,

jeffrey
 
Hey Jeffrey,

In answer to your question Red One or Scarlet:

The Red One is bigger, heavier and more power thirsty. The means more difficult for hand held work and more batteries required.
Its party piece, for me anyway is slow motion.

The Scarlet is smaller and more portable. A bit less thirsty but not as usefull for slow motion work. Also more expensive. But upgradable to Dragon for the future.

Both great cameras and both capable of shooting a film in 4K.

You will also have to take into account lenses. This is also a bit of a discussion. Red Ones traditionally are PL or Nikon mount. You can get third party mounts such as the Birger EF mount but these are quite rare now and not cheap. Scarlet's are available with PL or EF mounts, again there will be third party ones around.

Whatever you think it will cost you add a bit more. If you are starting from scratch there is so much it consider in terms of power, media and post. Don't let me put you off though, it is all worth it.

I would say this though; and this is just my opinion. I'm not sure I agree with setting yourselves up and competing as a "production company". Education and business for me shouldn't really mix. Will the camera be readily available for the students to get the hands on and learn, or will commercial work start to take precedence. I think is a great idea to get a Red and give your students experience shooting short films etc. But if you are competing with local freelancers and companys with kit paid for with kick starter money or donations its not really fair. You will have literally no overheads as I imagine your students will work for free? You need to be mindfull that you are not destroying the industry you will be sending your students off into.

Don't get me wrong, I am not having a go at you, far from it, this is just my experience of how these things tend to go. It is worth thinking about at this stage. I think it is great that you are looking to get your students experience and I am sure that you have the best intensions.

Good luck with everything.

Chris.
 
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RED ONE vs SCARLET

RED ONE vs SCARLET

I own a RED ONE and I'm going to have to say that if you have the money you should go scarlet.
The biggest factor is the cost of lenses.
you don't need cinema lenses and they cost too much.
$3500-$20,000 for lenses and kits versus using canon EF lenses that will work great for what you're doing for $400-$1500per lens.
I have a DSLR as well and I can go out and spend $800 for lenses or rent them for relatively cheap.
When I shoot on the RED, I have to purchase insurance at $600-$1000 per day and then rent the actual lenses for $500-$1000per day.
Or I could save up $16,000 for a lens set and not buy lenses any more.
The basic RED 18-50mm is going to cost you $3500 used.
For students practicing and learning, they should be using $800 lenses that you can repair cheaply if they break or scratch one. It's not as easy to replace a $10,000 lens.
You can get great quality out of canon EF lenses. For what you're doing, the cost-benefit ratio truly favors the scarlet.

You're going to spend more money on a scarlet but save money on lenses if you get the EF mount.

Next big factor is size and weight.
My RED ONE with everything attached is about 36lbs. working with it is slow. An operator can't hold it for more than a few minutes without getting tired.
Your work days are going to be slower than they already would be since they're students because they have to move around a "refrigerator".
That's not the direction cinema is going anyway. Cameras are going to get continually smaller. They don't need to learn on a heavy camera. They should be focusing on things like exposing the image properly, what should be framed in the shot, not how are we going to move this camera.
Another thing is it would be really difficult to stabilize a RED ONE on a budget. You're not going to have the budget for dolly's and steadicam rigs to move that giant thing around.
Going big is the first impulse, but it's not always the best.

There are some advantages to the RED ONE, but I don't think they're going to favor your situation.

Honestly I think students should be learning on 5D mark iii cameras, they're professionally used in all sorts of situations so it's good to know.
They should be focused on the techniques of capturing images not the details of how to operate a specific camera.
But you said you want a steep learning curve so spend a little more money to get a scarlet and save money on the lenses.
Get a camera that the students can hand hold relatively easily but will give them the full technical experience of operating an industry used professional camera.
 
hello, thank you very much for your descriptive replies: it helps a lot.

re: competing with the local industry: we wouldn't be working for free: that's where the math comes in. in my mind, we would have to be better technically in order to get the job because we're just high school kids.
the money earned is a different story: because students can't 'be paid' so perhaps we would roll the money over into the production company itself and the students get community service.
i don't want to 'undercut' the industry by flooding the market with free labor: i hate craigslist postings that require people to work for free...everybody needs to eat.

re: camera: i this point i think investing in the scarlet x system is good: less weight, affordable ef lenses, expandable in the future

refined mission statement: to produce our own student written 4k feature at the end of the year (or during the summer) while earning money for the production company by shooting commercials/projects/etc. for the local community at competitive wages.
the money earned goes into the production company / the students get credit for community service (which is a requirement to graduate)

what's really interesting is reading an article about employing autistic people because of their intellectual strengths, while providing them with an appropriate work environment

talk to you soon, j
 
I also think the kids would be better served with more cameras then with less. If it has to be 4k resolution can you just get the black magic 4k cameras when they come out?

as for buying used, its a hassle. i did it, and it worked out, but you gotta pay transfer of ownership fees, plus you get a very short warranty of only 90 days. that is less then ideal for a school, where it'll get beat on maybe. i'd just buy a new scarlet with an extended warranty to protect the schools investment.

also i still think a cheaper camera system will permit more cameras, more support gear, and more accessibility to students. if none of your clients have 4k monitors, and the school doesn't either, and neither do the students, then what is the benefit of 4k at all? likewise if it has to be 4k for some reason (dont see why though) then why not wait for black magic 4k camera?

the other possibility is, just keep raising the funds and wait to see what happens. all of us scarlet guys trading up to epic are filling reds inventory with battle tested scarlets. I imagine at some point they will unload these Scarlet MX cameras for pennies on the dollar...
 
But do you have all the other equipment, like jibs, dollies, etc. Lights, other grip gear and all that? Sure, you could rent all of that, but the same could be said for the camera. Perhaps get smaller cameras and more and rent the Scarlet when you need it. I don't know how much experience they have, but getting a Scarlet won't produce a masterpiece right away. If you are going to produce a feature, you'll want to consider things like story, actors, locations, sound and post production hardware before getting too wrapped up in thinking about what camera to use.
Personally, it's ultimately you who has to do the research and decide which camera is best suited for the job. But if anyone's going to hire you to shoot a feature film, you have to be really good. I mean, I'm in high school too, and I've been hired to shoot stuff, but even with a few years of experience, I would not shoot anyone's feature except perhaps my own.

Hope this helps you make a decision, look forward to see what you guys produce!
 
I would say a good used Red One MX with a Nikon or Birger EF mount is by far the cheapest option. Just find a good reliable used seller and have the camera sent in to Red for evaluation before completing the purchase. This is coming from a previous Scarlet owner by the way ;)

And remember the Red One MX has shot a ton of big budget Hollywood features including Academy Award nominated films. Plus 4.5k and 120fps at 2k is BIG. Scarlet has the size advantage for sure along with the redmote, touchscreen monitor, and red handle. But the media is HUGELY expensive and the current fans really really suck for recording anything longer then 11 minutes. Just my thoughts. You can't go wrong either way though, both are awesome cameras ;)
 
Okay,

the R1 was and still is a heck of a camera and an insane Deal right now for a used one, since it is not for sale new any more.

The Scarlet however (only if you can't afford the EPIC) is currently IMO the best solution for any such purpose, as it gives the possibilities to build it up in any such a configuration way you wish depending on the need of the project at hand, no other camera can do this better then the Epic/Scarlet, none!!


So no matter which way you go with this 3 choices you'll be on top... However not to take anything away from the R1, I would never buy a camera that is already out of market, when you have the latest in technology with such Body frame and infinite capacity otof building up to convenience with mount swaps to pleasure any one's taste and budget...


What I am trying to say here is that despite some of the Specs from camera to camera, there is really only two options here... (even if IMO there is really just one) Get a Scarlet, but again, only if you can't afford the EPIC... ;)


PS: Don't even consider any other camera, serve your purpose well.
 
I think if you wait until September, you'll start seeing Scarlet prices dropping like flies (rumors of cut-offs for upgrades and RED reducing price on those cams)
 
hello, thanks again for the positive comments

0) i checked out the blackmagic specs and it seems like the scarlet has better
3840 x 2160p30 for blackmagic
5120 (h) x 2700 (v) for scarlet (max resolution)

REDCODE™ 12 and 16-bit RAW 1-48 fps 5K FF at 5:1 compression
Max fps (2.4:1):
1-60 fps 5K
1-75 fps 4K
1-100 fps 3K
1-150 fps 2K

1) What is REDCODE 12 AND 16 BIT RAW, please...

REDCODE™ 16-bit RAW Processing : Compression choices of 18:1 to 3:1
1-12 fps 5K FF
1-30 fps 4K HD
1-48 fps 3K HD
1-60 fps 1080p HD
1-120 fps 1K

this seems to conflict to me somehow

2) with having the 'rest of the equipment: "But do you have all the other equipment, like jibs, dollies, etc.
Lights, other grip gear and all that?

i think a new scarlet will allow us 5 years from now of doing stuff professionally
i don't think we will be ready to outsource our skills until the beginning of year two
at which point i hope to get the kids to create another grant to get the supplemental addons
i personally hate 'shaky cam' and i love dolly/crane shots

the money we make from outsourcing will be channeled back into buying 'supplemental equipment'

3) we want to shoot 4k to do our own features: that is a solid requisite

4) i like that the scarlet is expandable and accepts affordable ef lenses

5) in actuality: the whole trick is to whoa the kids with a camera package
so they start to concentrate on story, character, imagery, color, sound...
in a sense this is a whole smoke and mirrors tactic i'm going with

to design lesson plans to get the students to go out and interview possible actors...priceless
to publish an add in the paper for looking for actors, again priceless

this is the meat and sweet potatoes of what we're doing

the social skills and the hands on application of the technical aspects of each department of film production



6) in our area i don't think a lot of the inhouse production companies have access to 4k

7) the epic is out of our budget: i've contacted red company and they don't seem to want to do
any additional help than their standard 'educational discount' which is why we're going kickstarter, donor's choose, etc.

8) that would be a dream come true if red does price breaks on scarlet in september

9) is there a list of what's needed re: equipment to shoot a feature with a scarlet (minus the editing rig)
matte boxes, lens filters, etc. (seeing images of these cameras makes it look like you have to buy sooooooooooooooo
much other stuff, not just a camera, lens, ssd, tripod, etc.)


10) "all of us scarlet guys trading up to epic are filling reds inventory with battle tested scarlets.
I imagine at some point they will unload these Scarlet MX cameras for pennies on the dollar... "

it is very premature to be asking, but anyone who does want to unload battletested scarlets please let me know
but do be patient we're dealing with city/state/federal education departments and organizations like donorschoice...


11) i think it is better to buy new just to protect ourselves, thanks for that one


12) i think our goal is to shoot OUR FEATURE and hire ourselves out for commercials or local band recordings,
weddings, etc. is a more realistic way to conceptualize this rather than stating we want to shoot other
people's features we would want 2-3 cameras at that point i think

please continue to comment: you are very smart and make me consider things from different angles i haven't thought of

cheers, jeffrey
 
The business plan sounds fishy to me. Why on earth would you buy a scarlet package to teach entry level video to high school kids? That's like teaching kids how to drive a race car in drivers ed. Bottom line if your doing local commercials/ short films/ features they will likely be broadcast on TV at best. DSLR makes more sense here. It's more cost effective and it's something these kids can actually afford to buy themselves should they want to continue shooting. With the money saved you can also buy macs for the kids to edit on. Apologies if what I am saying sounds mean spirited. I just think it makes no sense to invest in a red if in your #1 goal is to teach kids the basics.
 
hello,

@ adam, before ignacio posted you were providing positive feedback, why such a switch of face please?
the main goal is to provide an incoming 9th grader with special needs a 5 year plan of hands on learning via social/cognitive/emotional learning and motivation to show up to school

who wouldn't show up to class on time / all the time if you could put together all sorts of crazy stuff in 4k? sounds like a cool thing to me...

thanks, j
 
Do you want to teach them mainly acquisition or acquisition through to editing? Will there be money left over for the hardware/software required to edit 4k? To me, the Scarlet (I would choose Scarlet over R1MX) doesn't seem to fit right in this situation. I'd like to echo what some are saying here and go with multiple, lesser priced camera systems.

If I were to teach a class of high-school kids, I'd buy half a dozen BMPC video cameras, half a dozen editing machines, show them what's possible via a kick ass video produced with the camera, then split them into groups each with their own camera so that you don't have a bunch a kids spending most of their time watching over other kids' shoulders waiting for their turn. Experience is one of the best ways to learn so getting those kids behind the lens as much as possible is the way to go.

It seems to come down to what's more important; teaching and inspiring these kids (you don't need 4k to do that), or running a profitable business (you don't need 4k for that either). Either way, you'll have to compromise. Yeah putting together stuff in 4k is pretty awesome but realistically, how often are these kids going to see their work projected in 4k and how many will be able to tell the difference?
 
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