Court Rules that Unpaid Interns on Black Swan and 500 Days of Summer can sue Fox

[Liam Hall]

Student loan, that's how everyone I know did it.

Aren't you meant to spend that on beer?

Its a good question. On several web sites that posted the article, there have been some insightful comments on this. The gist of which are that this helps perpetuate the good ole boy network. That middle and upper class kids, the ones who can afford to work for six months without pay, get a leg up on those that cannot. Thus, the wealthy can afford to "purchase" the experience needed to compete for paying jobs, which perpetuates the lack of social mobility in our society.

You'll get the ole boy network whether people are paid or not. This industry has always attracted the feckless middle classes, or producers as I sometimes call them

 

[Brandon J.F.]

How did you afford to eat, pay for a roof over your head, travel to work or wash your clothes?

I'm not judging you guys, but not paying young people is a scourge on our industry.

I was 18 years-old and lived with my family. Food was provided by the production. I arranged rides to and from work since I didn't have a car. I listened to and studied everything that was going on, I read every document I got my hands on, I asked tons of questions and I happily did whatever was asked of me which did include taking out the garbage and bringing people coffee sometimes. I'd argue that my classmates working for $5 an hour at McDonald's all summer were more exploited than me. I got a taste of what it's like to work at what I dreamed of doing and a year and a half later I was directing my own film (35mm feature) and hiring several members of the crew who I worked with as an intern.

 

[Liam Hall]

Good for you Brandon, but it's still bang out of order not to pay you for the work you did.

 

[Brandon J.F.]

Good for you Brandon, but it still bang out of order not to pay you.

I read about the movie being made in the local newspaper, cold called the production office and said I would work for free doing anything they wanted and that I was highly motivated, and did not expect any payment at all. Just experience. It would have been wrong for me to expect or ask for payment for that job. I was offered paid work on another job after the shoot ended, but I was off to University (briefly).

 

[Michael Panfeld]

lived with my family.

middle and upper class kids, the ones who can afford to work for six months without pay, get a leg up on those that cannot. Thus, the wealthy can afford to "purchase" the experience needed to compete for paying jobs, which perpetuates the lack of social mobility in our society.

Food was provided by the production

Really, production provided 3 square a day, 7 days a week, including holidays?????

I arranged rides to and from work since I didn't have a car.

What about the poor kids whose friends do not have cars?

I listened to and studied everything that was going on, I read every document I got my hands on, I asked tons of questions...

I see, so if you had been paid, you would not have learned anything? That's just silly.-

 

[David Kuhn]

Unpaid interns has always been a scam by entertainment companies to save money. It's short sighted and in my opinion one of the ways used to drive everybody's rates into the ground. If you're doing a menial job get menial pay. i can understand that there should be a place for people to apprentice around sets but companies are taking this too far and should be taken to task for it. As far as learning on the job, the court document said it best, everybody in the office was learning from their experience, paid or unpaid. What, Searchlight couldn't make the movie or afford to continue if they paid these kids $8 an hour? Really?

I guess that's one way to think about it (and it may be right depending on the situation). You could also look at it as an educational experience where you don't have to PAY. I think a lot of the time the rule is 'if they're working as opposed to taking a class... they should be paid' but it seems like semantics to me. A PHD student will get paid for the lab work they do... but the amount they get paid often doesn't cover the amount the school is charging for them to be there - so are they really getting paid? One easy way to deal with this ruling would be for movie companies to create an official educational program around the internship role, pay the 'students' $50k for their hard work on set... and charge them $50k tuition... problem solved. The only reason ANYONE will do something for free is if they're getting something out of it that they think is more valuable than the effort they need to put in, the government (imo) shouldn't be butting their nose into that free barter of services.

 

[Michael Panfeld]

pay the 'students' $50k for their hard work on set... and charge them $50k tuition... problem solved. The only reason ANYONE will do something for free is if they're getting something out of it that they think is more valuable than the effort they need to put in, the government (imo) shouldn't be butting their nose into that free barter of services.

Huh, so not only is the net pay=0, but now you are adding on the need to finance $50K in cash flow? Once again, that is a great way to repress the lower class and keep the middle and upper class kids in their respective "caste". How many kids living at the poverty level could afford $50K tuition (even if they get that $50K back) Sounds like a Republican plan if I ever heard one.

The government should absolutely be involved so as to ensure that the labor market is a fair one, not one tilted in favor of the wealthy.

 

[Liam Hall]

I read about the movie being made in the local newspaper, cold called the production office and said I would work for free doing anything they wanted and that I was highly motivated, and did not expect any payment at all. Just experience.

That is a different situation to Producers who actively seek free labour. It's still not right though.

 

[David Kuhn]

Huh, so not only is the net pay=0, but now you are adding on the need to finance $50K in cash flow? Once again, that is a great way to repress the lower class and keep the middle and upper class kids in their respective "caste". How many kids living at the poverty level could afford $50K tuition (even if they get that $50K back) Sounds like a Republican plan if I ever heard one.

The government should absolutely be involved so as to ensure that the labor market is a fair one, not one tilted in favor of the wealthy.

I suggest leaving the system as it was... but the proffered approach is perfectly legal and results in the same outcome (other than some financing costs). If one approach is illegal and another with the same outcome is legal (and standard practice nationwide)... you've got a semantics debate. My position is libertarian on this one not republican... I think the government should keep it's incompetent nose out of as much of our lives as possible - something neither party seems capable of doing.

 

[David Collard]

Interns should be paid something. At least an honorarium. Period. Even $40 or $50.
It's total horse shit that some productions just can't afford an honorarium to the interns.

 

[Brandon J.F.]

middle and upper class kids, the ones who can afford to work for six months without pay, get a leg up on those that cannot. Thus, the wealthy can afford to "purchase" the experience needed to compete for paying jobs, which perpetuates the lack of social mobility in our society.

Why would you presume to know anything about my background? The truth would, apparently, surprise you.

Really, production provided 3 square a day, 7 days a week, including holidays?????

2-3 meals 6 days a week and a kitchen full of snacks/drinks. It was slightly less than 3 months in total.

What about the poor kids whose friends do not have cars?

I'm talking about my specific situation, but the answer is you find a way.

I see, so if you had been paid, you would not have learned anything? That's just silly.-

No, but if I asked for money when I called I never would have gotten the job and would have learned nothing. I had to prove myself.

Why the hate Michael? Nothing prevents you from paying your interns and I'm not against paid internships.

 

[Michael Panfeld]

I suggest leaving the system as it was... but the proffered approach is perfectly legal and results in the same outcome (other than some financing costs). If one approach is illegal and another with the same outcome is legal (and standard practice nationwide)... you've got a semantics debate. My position is libertarian on this one not republican... I think the government should keep it's incompetent nose out of as much of our lives as possible - something neither party seems capable of doing.

Actually your approach is not legal. In your dream world, the film set employee is required to pay tuition as a condition of his employment. That's no different than forcing employees to buy their provisions at the company store and sleep in the company dorms at prices the company establishes. Luckily those labor practices were banned a century ago.

 

[Michael Panfeld]

Why the hate Michael?

Why do you presume that a contrary opinion =hate? You wouldn't, of course. But its a great way to shift the debate away from facts and logic and towards ignorance and emotion.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I suggest leaving the system as it was... but the proffered approach is perfectly legal and results in the same outcome (other than some financing costs). If one approach is illegal and another with the same outcome is legal (and standard practice nationwide)... you've got a semantics debate. My position is libertarian on this one not republican... I think the government should keep it's incompetent nose out of as much of our lives as possible - something neither party seems capable of doing.

Except that you forget that there are actually requirements that an organization has to meet to qualify as an educational institution. I understand that your plan was a red herring but it, of course, makes no sense and does not even equate to the situation at hand. The truth is, if the production could actually work with a legitimate educational organization to arrange real internships for credit, they could use this "slave" labor. Might not necessarily make it right, but it would at least be an exchange of value.

 

[Brandon J.F.]

Why do you presume that a contrary opinion =hate? You wouldn't, of course. But its a great way to shift the debate away from facts and logic and towards ignorance and emotion.

My position is that I own my own meat and if I want to be able to work for free for someone then I should have that right. I'm against any law that prevents me from exercising that right.

What's your position?

 

[Ivan Kovax]

Here is some food for thought related to the discussion at hand.

This issue was recently brought up by a freelancer group I am a member of in Tokyo, with the aim of not working for free, or to discuss under what circumstances it is acceptable to work for free.

WOuld love to continue the discussion here and hear you guys thoughts:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/05/digital-economy-work-for-free

 

[Terry VerHaar]

On the face of it, Brandon, of course you are right (IMO). However, that assumes that both parties are honest and dealing in good faith. If so, it's always easier to understand how things really work. Life is never black and white, though. Perhaps every one isn't as honest as you are, or as the producer you dealt with as an "intern." (Wrong term since it doesn't sound like you got academic credit.)

And, as has been pointed out, your actions have consequences for others as well. How would you feel if a swarm of new USC film grads - rich kids without loans, just for the sake of argument, swarmed over your set and took several of the paying gigs, including yours - because the producer owed his powerful friend a "favor." And, heck, why not - they work for free; any producer likes FREE. Even though they can afford to drive to the set in the Porsches they got for graduation. Now, imagine you find out they actually work hard and learned something in film school so after a couple weeks, they are pretty competent. Bummer, you have to keep hustling for new gigs.

I don't/can't know your age, experience or economic circumstance just as you don't know mine. Every person and every person's experiences are different. What some of us are advocating here is fairness. It is, by the nature of our society, very hard to come by. For background, I really suggest reading Malcolm Gladwell's book Outliers - The Story of Success. I'll bet you don't know what the single most important determinant of success in the NHL is.

 

[Alex Frausto]

What about the poor kids whose friends do not have cars?

What about them? Are you implying that "poor" adults (companies don't employ "kids" as interns) are incapable of following their dreams simply because they have to ride the bus? I didn't have a car my first two years of college yet somehow was able to make it to class. And to work. And to parties if necessary:001_tongue:.

While I agree that money makes many things (good and bad) more accessible, It annoys me to no end when it is insinuated that just because someone has access to less money, they are somehow less driven, hard working and astute. Just because someone grows up poor, should not make them an object of pity. This attitude is just wrong.

In my 36 years on this planet I can safely say that the most successful people I know, the happiest people I know.....all came up from humble beginnings. Most of the "rich kids" I associated with when I was younger did not amount to much.....maybe because they really didn't have to, who knows.

Sounds like a Republican plan if I ever heard one.

You do know that most of the richest people in the US are Democrats, right?

 

[Matt Ryan]

You do know that most of the richest people in the US are Democrats, right?

That's because Democrats like to pretend that they are the minority as well as the lower (99%) class. Last time I checked almost all of my teachers and professors growing up were Democrats. Interesting. They also forget that it was Republicans who fought to free slaves. Oh well, politics are funny.

We are forgetting one huge point here. Everyone who takes an unpaid internship does it on their own free will. They have no obligation to stay past they're internship and have no reason to be forced into "interning" beyond their initial duties. This is not slavery and these people can walk away at any time. The issue is, there will always be people wanting those unpaid positions regardless of whether people think it's right or not. The question is are you willing to or not?

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Matt - just to clarify - you might want to look into the history of the Republican party and it's evolution since 1860 before you have George W. Bush and Abraham Lincoln sitting over tea. LOL