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Why I shoot on Red, 4K, and love the idea of Dragon 6K.

Phil Holland

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There's a lot of fun talk going on post NAB and a whole lot of crazy talk.

In the midst of this I thought I'd open up a bit and explain a few things about why I've been Red advocate, Red owner, and Red shooter. I'll keep it brief, but of course there's some fun images, and perhaps a look into my own madness.

When I was growing up out here in Southern California production was all around me. I literally was able to ride my bike onto filming locations, hang out, and watch productions shoot. Star Trek was a good one, but many tapped the "valley" for shooting for it's crazy landscapes. Sometimes they fed me and a few times the crew even put me to work!

None of my family is in entertainment and growing up I was told that I could not make a living from doing "that sort of thing". Yet, all around me where people doing that. So happily I went along pursuing a career in science. Focused mostly towards engineering and biological engineering.

However, something happened. I got some early work and odd jobs on a couple productions. In my hazy vision I recall picking up rubber frogs off the ground and a few other weird things. In 1999 I was 19 and "got into the industry". However, I got in through post production. However, the important thing was I got in on on major motion picture post production which was not only extremely demanding in terms of quality control, but also often bleeding edge technology.

I won't bore you with my entire career, but before I was shooting I was a Scan/Record Coordinator and Digital Colorist. A great deal of my job was quality control and being a Digital Colorist in the early 2000s was frankly exciting. Actually, all of this has always been exciting.

onebulb.jpg


That there is a burnt out scanner bulb from the industry's first 4K scanner. I was fortunate to work under the man who created this scanner and also won a Technical Academy Award for doing so. He was more or less a second father figure in my life and I learned a great deal under his leadership. There were many tests. There is/was a reason that 4K was the target for S35 film to be scanned.

oldScanner.jpg


The old scanner wasn't much of a looker, but let me tell you in the 90's this thing was state of the art. I got to know this machine. Love this machine. It nearly ate my finger a couple times and even gave a good shock once. It took around 27 seconds to scan a 4K image on the CCD.

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This is a shot taken around 2001 in my old office. This was my previous boss's "cork board of information". In the upper right corner you can see some of the various information on formats that we scanned and worked on.

northlightFilmScanner2004.jpg


Eventually more advanced and faster film scanners came to the market. This Northlight scanner could scan at 6K around 6 seconds a frame and also used fancy Xenon bulbs that made it look a bit like Iron Man. The industry found noticeable improvements by scanning at 6K and scaling down to 4K and 2K. This rather lovely designed scanner was expensive, like really expensive. And this is also when disk space wasn't exactly cheap. However, it took the industry by storm and a great deal of companies bought these up and still use them today.

tapeRobot.jpg


We backed up this material back then to tape and had a fancy robot that handled the precious material. Occasionally I'd jog from my office into the server room to watch it dance. We scanned at 4K and comped down to 2K and backed up 4K and 2K uncompressed 16bit scans. Lots, and lots, and lots of space was needed.

arrishutdown_01.jpg


Once VFX and color work was done we had to get the images back onto film. Initially we had two Lux Laser Recorders and a couple Solitaires, however the Lux's were replaced with the ArriLaser 4K Recorder. About the size of a small washer and dryer next to each other it took about 6 seconds a frame to shoot out an image. The Lux's were about 26-ish seconds per frame and if I could manage the render queue a I could get that down a bit, which was important when delivering the final reel of film to make theatrical duplication. I'd stay late, sometimes very late, and sometimes cover graveyard when things were important or hot.

densitometerCleanRoom.jpg


Film wasn't exactly perfect. Lot's and lots of variables. LAD prints could be way off and NG, scratches, issues with fluctuations in laser intensity, etc. This was the densitometer I used to read gray patches

graypatch.jpg


to make sure we were nice and neutral and calibrated to spec. Quality control for clients at this level is high and making sure we have control over the images that we projected was extremely important.

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That's a shot of the old Wyse terminal we used to interface with the densitometer and scanner. I'm far too young to know what this is, but it was at some point part of my life.

loop.jpg


This is a high magnification loop we used to inspect the film for imperfections and examine grain.

microscope.jpg


This was the alignment block that we used to measure the offset of the film in the X and Y via technical microscope. If it was off there was potential for inconsistencies in positioning when spliced back together with the actual original negative that went to print.

myworkstation.jpg


This was my old Linux workstation in my office, the same year we upgraded from Unix. Eventually I had a PC, a Mac, and a PC laptop to go along with this thing to assist with software creation, R&D, and data ingestion. I coded a great deal of programs. Automated laser recording tools, automated scanning tools, automated "digital scanning" tools, color correction tools, color correction databases, HDRI software, etc... This was all stuff that had to be created because there often weren't solutions. Things have changed much since then.

greenscreen.jpg


In my office I also had a calibrated lightbox for reviewing color strips, wedges, tests, and shots.

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I spent an unhealthy amount of time becoming a film whisperer.

morecolors.jpg


I would sometimes utilize correction gels to compensate for variations in the LAD prints when reviewing color grades and corrections. Specifically handy when you needed to discover where things needed to go to get a desired look. Eventually I did not need these filters at all and just "knew".

oldServerRoom.jpg


Working in 4K/2K uncompressed 16bit was a chore. Luckily we had a fairly massive render queue to deal with the frames. Often, when I was trying to get a lot of work done I'd utilize our render queue tools to speed things up. Initially the job of color correction and grading was about 1 to 3 movies a year. DI wasn't even a term yet, HD just landed. Eventually the industry changed and demanded more from studios. There was one summer where I was doing color work on 11 feature films. Luckily my color tools handled versions and jobs effectively or I would have lost my mind. Around this time I was shooting a lot more.

I was fortunate to experiment and shoot with short ends a lot and had access to these tools. Completely spoiled by that. I remember cursing my DV camera at some point for being so wrong. Eventually I started getting opportunities to shoot footage and material on projects because my abilities were up to snuff. Eventually shooting VFX photography, elements, shots, and other crazy things.

oldScreeningRoom.jpg


That's a shot from the old screening room. Dailies and client review all happened here. Eventually some tremendous Halo multiplayer too. I spent many an hour going over film to review to producers, directors, and supervisors notes. Often we screened important stuff before the important folks saw it. Quality control and high standards. That's what it's about.

Interestingly I'd sometimes black out the screening room and actually shoot VFX elements in there. It became a secret laboratory a few times.
 
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me21DrawingALot.jpg


This is me at 21. I was doing concept design created an airship for some crazy movie that took place on Mars. Young and focused. When I wasn't working I was practicing, researching, studying, and trying to improve. When I decided not to go to college and turned down several scholarships in the process I made a choice. A choice to work.

When I first got my shot in the industry I wanted to work with the "big dogs". Not so much because I wanted to be a big dog, but rather because I wanted to learn from the best and do good work for them. Anytime I had the opportunity when I started going out on set I made sure I was respectful, observant, and willing to work hard. Really hard. The big dogs, the experienced guys who were at it and created the industry, they've earned that respect. That has been possibly the best part of all of this over the years. I tried getting my hands on everything. Electric, ACs, Grips, Set Dec, DPs, Directors, Producers, Storyboard Artists, etc.... I couldn't get enough. Learning about the craft came from doing the work and in that way I've been extremely fortunate.


"That's cool and all Phil, but......"

How does all this apply to 4K, 6K, Dragon or Red?

2K and 1080p were born out of compromise. We were chasing film for a while and weren't ready for it for some time. Super 35mm Film always out-resolved those resolutions. 4K, 5K, and 6K scaled to 4K is/was where it's at. A 5K debayer down to 4K is mathematically a great image. Soon we'll have a bit more flexibility. The new 4K display technologies are going to demand high quality imagery, especially at the screen sizes of these early displays!

Film going to theaters has never been perfect and the odds of seeing a mass duped print that looks anything like what the final film was supposed to look like has always been low. Digital delivery and digital projection are about to add a hell of a lot more control to that chaos.

Red brought us a 4K digital cinema camera back when nobody, and I mean nobody even wanted wanted to do so. An alternative to film with the resolution truly needed and the added flexibility of REDCODE Raw. They built an entire workflow. And soon a total workflow from capture to delivery.

It is true that the best camera is the camera that you can afford. That should be your guiding mindset especially if you're starting out.

However, we all have to acknowledge what the actual target is and has been. 4K isn't now, it's been here for a while. SD and HD penetrated the consumer market place because it was affordable. 4K is now doing exactly that and soon you'll have that cinema experience in home or in the theater.

Everybody who's shot S35 and seen it through to the end knows that 4K is the future. In my mind everything else has always been a compromise. Red did too. And for that I'm grateful.

Just sharing the opinion of somebody who cares a great deal about what they shoot.

Have a good weekend.
 
Phil Holland;1199 [COLOR=#F1F1F1 said:
Film going to theaters has never been perfect and the odds of seeing a mass duped print that looks anything like what the final film was supposed to look like has always been low. Digital delivery and digital projection are about to add a hell of a lot more control to that chaos.[/COLOR]

This is the key reason I stopped going to the movie theatre, the print almost always looked compromised to me and it was difficult to ignore those imperfections. HD quality screens and players offered significant improvement for home consumption and digital projection made the theater experience better, but on the acquisition side, just never found any camera very impressive. Hard to believe we are in the dawn of the era where the "theater" is going to be our home, and any size production has the option to shoot in 6K RAW. Pretty exciting stuff.
 
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Cool post Phil -- staying safe from the fires?

Drove by them today. Didn't jog into the flames this time. Lots of smoke and people getting sick everywhere because of it. I'm fine. This area burns twice a year like clockwork.


Pretty exciting stuff.

Soon it's going to be wonderful. REDRAY, Laser Projector, .RED. Good things. Circular. Capture through delivery.


Great post. Another Phil Sticky right there.

This one's for Jim, Jarred, and the Red Team. Coming from the pits I was birthed from everything is clear to me. That's also who Red has made these cameras for.

I was inspired by some folks I spoke to today who had some rather negative things to say about Red and it was all nonsense. Misinformed, confused, and just strange opinions. 15 minutes with my camera and laptop changed that.

I'm grateful for these tools.
 
I was inspired by some folks I spoke to today who had some rather negative things to say about Red and it was all nonsense. Misinformed, confused, and just strange opinions. 15 minutes with my camera and laptop changed that.
I had some invalid opinions on 4k vfx, where I was thinking rendering at 4k was slower then rendering at 2k for some water effects. But a rendering expert showed me that rendering at 4k was faster in generating detail on reflections on water/glass then doing ray trace sampling at 2k (i.e 4x in pixel amount with 8 samples on 4k is faster then 64x in samples on a 2k format). I'm just glad there are guys like you that have the patience to help guys like me.
 
Great shots, Phil. Are you related to Dave Holland, one of the pioneering color-correction guys at Image Transform? Amazing man -- I think he has several Oscars and Emmys.

I saw a lot of similar technology at Cinesite, circa 2002-2004. Back then, we were lucky to crawl through just 2K DI's. We did often scan at 4K and then do an instant downres to 2K, which our chief engineer called "2K+" because, for various reasons, it looked better than a straight 2K scan.

I'm not convinced there's more than 2K of sharpness in any movie made prior to about 1980, but it depends on the movie. The 65mm negative movies... that could possibly go higher. And I don't dispute that restoration is better at 4K.

The trick now is that there's a bunch of 4K cameras on the market, and not all of them are created equal. It's only a matter of time before they shove a 4K chip into an iPhone. Will that be 4K? Technically, it would be, but it'd still look like crap. To me, 4K is only one of many factors that affect picture quality, and I'm not even convinced it's the most important one.
 
Thanks for a wonderful story, Phil. I have had similar experiences in the music industry. Oversampling and the importance of the signal chain plus the explosion of cost efficient tech has made it clear a long time ago that high fidelity is important. Nothing beats story and vision, yes, but quality of image and sound shure helps immersion.
 
Very well spoken, Phil and sound points all.

I can relate very well to everything you've said, only in the print world. Our firm had the first HELL scanner in the US, a huge device taking up an entire room and a half, just to scan slides. Seeing all of the technology transform our industry was remarkable and telling, the old guard wasn't going to be around much longer. We actually still used linotype machines for a few older state documents in the early '80's!

RED's arrival timed exactly with my getting back into the film side of things and I knew immediately that it was pushing the wave of the future. It has, and like you, I'm glad.
 
Ohw Grade Post.... Phil :)
 
Great post Phil - fascinating read :smile:
 
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I'm just glad there are guys like you that have the patience to help guys like me.

Heh. There's many roads to 4K VFX. Most of the "true" concern in that realm are purely logistics issues and budgetary concerns. I know a couple of places where 4K VFX has been done long ago for a few shots here and there. There were also a few 65mm ride films that employed 4K+ VFX in the past. When staring at a film with 300-1800 VFX shots and doing all that work in 4K and squarely having that "deadline gun" pointed at your head it's a daunting task. It just requires some creative problem solving and a look at the bigger picture. The way I've handled it for the last couple years is work straight in 4K for all 2D comp work, temp out animation approval in 1080p then go to 4K for finals, mind how many samples because render times can be nuts. However, I've had a render farm at my disposal a couple times and much of that was mitigated.


Great shots, Phil. Are you related to Dave Holland, one of the pioneering color-correction guys at Image Transform? Amazing man -- I think he has several Oscars and Emmys.

I saw a lot of similar technology at Cinesite, circa 2002-2004. Back then, we were lucky to crawl through just 2K DI's. We did often scan at 4K and then do an instant downres to 2K, which our chief engineer called "2K+" because, for various reasons, it looked better than a straight 2K scan.

Nope, not related to Dave Holland. I came to the color correction party because my first boss was performing color work via notepad, calculator, an image viewer to read pixel values of a single frame, and using a command line program to enter those values and create a temporary frame just for review. She stayed late very, very often because at that time it was a new concept. Once I figured out how to program I had my "Neo moment" and created a versioning system, database, a node based color pipeline that utilized realtime feedback, and boom things were exponentially faster. Things were both simpler and more complicated then.

I wonder if we should.... call Dragon a 4K+ camera?!


Thanks for a wonderful story, Phil. I have had similar experiences in the music industry. Oversampling and the importance of the signal chain plus the explosion of cost efficient tech has made it clear a long time ago that high fidelity is important. Nothing beats story and vision, yes, but quality of image and sound shure helps immersion.

It's an interesting thing. I do see a lot of overlap between creative outlets. One of the things I go over at Gnomon when we cover "contrast" as it pertains to lighting, exposure, color work, and value is pointing out it's similarity to various formas of compression, expansion, and limiting in the audio world. There are so many things that are similar it freaks me out!


Very well spoken, Phil and sound points all.

I can relate very well to everything you've said, only in the print world. Our firm had the first HELL scanner in the US, a huge device taking up an entire room and a half, just to scan slides. Seeing all of the technology transform our industry was remarkable and telling, the old guard wasn't going to be around much longer. We actually still used linotype machines for a few older state documents in the early '80's!

RED's arrival timed exactly with my getting back into the film side of things and I knew immediately that it was pushing the wave of the future. It has, and like you, I'm glad.

Oh that must have been a nasty huge device.

Whatever they put in the water in the 90's and 2000's seemed to push a great deal of industries into the future. It's pretty rad these days. I keep a small flatbed scanner with me in my backpack. I sometimes do design work in hotel rooms. A couple Redusers have witnessed this at NAB even. My old SCSI scanner was like 25lbs or something and the size of a Buick and cost about as much too. Technology has changed a lot and it's effected everything.

Just look at the cost of film stock alone for a feature length project versus where we are today with digital. A film I recently worked on went through about $1,215,000 in raw film stock. That's not including processing or shipping fees. Pretty quickly that number gets closer to $2 million when you take everything into account.
 
Thanks Phil, your post is a great read.

It shows me that the evolution of the tools got democratized but the attention to the details that can make a picture great, is a mind set.

Tools like open DCP are in hands of every one but it doesn't make every computer a mastering device.

Knowledge and attention to the details make the difference.

Pat
 
My reasons aren't as dee, detailed, or circuitous. And there are many: the resolution, the look, the feel, the raw brilliance behind utilizing compression, the usability of the camera itself, the versatility and adaptability . . .

But, more than any of the other reasons combined, I shoot on Red for the following reason:

The smartest and most talented people that I follow and pay attention to almost universally prefer to shoot on Red. The absolutely best looking images I have seen in theaters in the past 5 years have all been shot on Red.

And yes, Phil, you're one of those People (in addition to a few others on these forums). If I can't get my hands on lenses to test out, the first thing I do is see if Phil's posted a review of the set anywhere. It's the next best thing to seeing it myself.
 
...I keep a small flatbed scanner with me in my backpack. I sometimes do design work in hotel rooms. A couple Redusers have witnessed this at NAB even. My old SCSI scanner was like 25lbs or something and the size of a Buick and cost about as much too. Technology has changed a lot and it's effected everything...

Curious what you use the scanner for? Anything special about it, or just a means to get documents into a computer?
 
Great post. I always take away something from your well put together posts and thoughts. I remember when I was starting out in this line of work someone asked me "what is your favorite camera?" I said my favorite camera would be a super 35mm camera with unlimited film. It's really amazing to think that I have just that, a little box with unlimited "film" inside of it that I can shoot with forever.
 
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Knowledge and attention to the details makes the difference.

I'll never forget the worlds from my first boss, "the work you do here is very, very important". She had a dedication and focus on quality control that I had to exceed or match to even play ball. Valuable information. I think of that quote often. There's a few those statements that constantly echo in my mind at all times.


The smartest and most talented people that I follow and pay attention to almost universally prefer to shoot on Red. The absolutely best looking images I have seen in theaters in the past 5 years have all been shot on Red.

And yes, Phil, you're one of those People (in addition to a few others on these forums). If I can't get my hands on lenses to test out, the first thing I do is see if Phil's posted a review of the set anywhere. It's the next best thing to seeing it myself.

Well thanks for that compliment! I'm just addicted to glass. Good or bad you can always use them for something.


Curious what you use the scanner for? Anything special about it, or just a means to get documents into a computer?

I've done a good deal of experiments with scanners, but 99.9% of the time I'm scanning in drawings to paint them digitally later on. A good deal of concept artists these days draw straight in the computer and I do too occasionally, but I'm significantly faster with a pencil or pen. I do freelance conceptual design and key art occasionally, especially for pre-production ahead of projects. Just knocked out a fun job a week ago for a feature that's not shooting until next year. I draw damn near everyday. You'd be hard pressed to find me without a sketchbook nearby.
 
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A fun update on this. I discussed and showed this on a projector to my students today. I went a bit into detail on some of the "sticky bits" that I didn't get into in this thread. Pretty confident most thought images came from storks :)

Fun day. Great week of nostalgia and showcasing how far we've come.

Dragon and me, we're gonna be friends.
 
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