Dragon upgrade for Epic: is it a good deal?

[Steven-Marc C.]

With the Dragon sensor AND asics only being covered by a 90 days warranty, wouldn't it make more sense to sell our Epic and buy a brand new Epic-X Dragon for (a ridiculously low) $24K which would get us full warranty as well as the option to get renewed full Armour coverage ? Might end up costing slightly more than the upgrade price but we'd also get a brand new camera with probably the new fans, etc. We'd also avoid having to send our camera back and having it immobilized for a period of time. The Epic-X Dragon is not available for order in the store yet, but until it is we can keep working with our Epic MX. I'd rather be an early adopter and am actually among the first on the upgrade list, but am having second thoughts. At the original $6K the upgrade was a no-brainer, but with the new pricing and the 90 day warranty I'm starting to think it might be better to wait a bit.

This is not a thread to criticize Red's offering but rather a personal reflexion on the opportunity to upgrade on which I'd like to have other owners' thoughts in case I missed something. I realize the whole warranty thing is probably a tricky one for Red from a legal point of view and perhaps they are doing the best they can. Besides, I'm sure they'd be just as happy to sell us a brand new Epic! Either way, we're eager to get the Dragon.

 

[ericyoung]

Have to agree about 90day warranty on several Red items being a confidence knocker generally. A year is far more in line with customer expectations, even in professional situations. Actually more so, as failure affects the tools of your profession!

 

[Mike Halper]

I've posted about this in 2 other threads. I think the 90 day warranty is absurd and laughable. It shows that Red does not stand behind their product. That coupled with the issues I've had with 2 Epics in the last year, I question the reliability and think the $10k expense is way too risky with only a 90 day warranty. With a longer warranty and having it be covered by existing Armor warranty I think the $10k would be worth it if the images it produces are exceptionally better than Epic MX when both are shown at 4K.

 

[Marcello Altieri]

No video has been showed and that for me a crazy thing to do if you present a new sensor...at nab they were showing the body but not the actual picture that the dragon makes....everybody is supposed to follow like sheep...paying for something secret..good luck

 

[Ketch Rossi]

To me it is a very good deal, less then 10k spent to get a superior new camera.

Okay, I must agree that the 90 Day warranty on the new Dragon Sensor and ASICS components could have been a full year instead and or been covered in the current RED ARMOR and or offer a RED ARMOR additionally...


However, as far as not been any video out, this does not worry me neither does worry any one here on Reduser that has been shooing RED for the past 7 years, and since we have a TRUST in the RED team, as we did with the R1, then the MX sensor on the R1, and then on the Epic 5k, and this TRUST is why I and many others year have opted for the Dragon upgrade, even without any images, why.

No one is forcing any one to buy or upgrade ot Dragon, just wait behind the lines, till RED and or we produce images that satisfy you, that simple.

 

[Steven-Marc C.]

I fully trust Red in regards to bringing to market a superior sensor. I've been an early adopter on R1 and Epic and never regretted it. That is not the issue here. In fact Red is not the issue here. I'm not asking for anything more from them, just weighing out my options and wondering if it might not make more sense to get a brand new Epic Dragon body rather than the upgrade.

 

[BigLu]

Quite valid, understandable and thoughtful point.
Does make one ponder the options.
For me I can really use the longest warranty one can obtain.

I appreciate the approach.

 

[Elsie N]

First of all, let me say I've only had to send one thing back to RED and that was a side handle.

Still, I've always felt a certain level of comfort that if anything went wrong I had that original year's warranty to cover it if I should need it. I'm upgrading two cameras and that's a pretty big chunk of change for me, so if something goes wrong outside of that 90 days, that camera goes silent until I get the money to pay for fixing it. If both cameras fail, I go silent until I get the money to fix at least one of them. I'm confident RED would honor a catastrophic failure that was traceable back to them, even outside the 90 day period. But I'm not so confident about individual failures since they might not be sure if it was pilot error or equipment failure.

I do hope RED will stress our cameras after upgrading to ensure they come back proven. But after getting mine back, I'm going to baby them along in hopes of not causing any problems. This means things like limited use of higher fps, 48 timebase... just 23.976 and 6:1 maximum redcode settings and certainly no HDRx. Later on when I'm able to afford any repairs that might crop up, I'll utilize the camera to its fullest.

 

[Steffen Baermann]

I just ordered my scarlet upgrade. I agree the 90 days are short, wonder if that overall falls under European law anyway. Still if RED wants to stay in business, they will need to help us out, if there are any major issues. The community is small enough to spread word of mounth and I am quite sure, especially with Blackmagic and others having competitive offers, that RED will not be able to afford to many dissatisfied customers.

So I count on, that they only stay in business with happy customers. It is not like in the food business, that the base of customers is too big !

 

[Mike P.]

THAT is ironic. The whole point of upgrading is because it's supposed to be cheaper/better, but it's actually turning out to be better to sell-off and buy new than to upgrade? That's exactly the same as Sony's (or Canon's/Panny's/Arri's/etc) business model; where you'd sell off your F35 (or F3) and buy an F65 (or F5)...

Honestly, I think RED shot themselves in the foot here (or at least filled 'Obsolescence Obsolete' full of holes). You could sell your Epic-X brain for a modest ~12k, and get a completely new Epic-Dragon (with warranty) for an additional 12k. What Scarlet owner considering $9500 to go to Epic-X, wouldn't splurge the extra $2.5k to have both brains (or sell their SX for $5k, effectively netting them an Epic-X for $7k instead of $9500)? It's kind of stupid, really.

Conversely, if you sold to someone new to RED your Epic Brain for ~$15k (saving them $2.5k off of retail price), it'd only cost you $9k to get Epic-Dragon with a full year warranty. This whole thing does seem more awkward, than 'better'.

 

[Stephen Matthews]

sorry how does that work? Epic is 17,500? sell scarlet for 5k spend 12,500 instead of 9,500?

and on the epic side why spend 12k to upgrade to dragon instead of 9,500?

why not just pay for outside insurance(perhaps not possible), probably make much more sense... also from what I have read the MX sensor wasn't even covered by red armor, sensor coverage and body and parts are separate I believe.

 

[Mike P.]

sorry how does that work? Epic is 17,500? sell scarlet for 5k spend 12,500 instead of 9,500?

and on the epic side why spend 12k to upgrade to dragon instead of 9,500?

why not just pay for outside insurance, probably make much more sense... also from what I have read the MX sensor wasn't even covered by red armor, sensor coverage and body and parts are separate I believe.

Sorry, I'm jumping a little and it's all hypothetical... I'm talking used prices as per the OPs original thoughts (is it better to sell off and buy new than to upgrade?) If you're an Epic-X owner and you want to get to Epic-Dragon it's $9500, but with only a 90day warranty. For some, that warranty is actually pretty important, so it would make sense to sell your Epic-X brain for $14.5k (assuming you can), and then buy a new Epic-Dragon for $24k (which would be 24 - 14.5 = the same $9.5k out of pocket, but with a full warranty).

On the Scarlet side, if the used Epic-X brain is cheap enough, you could actually net an Epic-X for cheaper than the $9500 upgrade cost by either selling off your Scarlet brain and buying a used Epic-X brain, OR buy putting in a little extra and keeping both brains. So, for example, Epic-X used for $12.5k, sell your Scarlet for $5k, and you basically get the $9500 upgrade for (12.5k - 5k =) $7500 and still end up with a 90day warranty. It basically hinges on how important the warranty is to you (and you'd likely get your Epic-Dragon quicker, as you wouldn't have to wait for the swap time).

 

[Stephen Matthews]

but is that for body or for sensor only, as I said I think the MX sensor wasn't even covered now I could be wrong but it seems people could be getting things confused, though that could just be me. Either way I'm waiting to see things roll out before I make a decision as some things still remain to be clarified.

 

[aree shonteff]

Ketch I do agree with you $10k for a new camera is a great deal but I did pay $40k+ for my epic 1 year ago and it is wotrh half this in less than a year and I to am haveing second thoughts about this with the 90 day warranty I'm only a small setup but we all have to start at the bottom and work up I really would like to add red warrenty to the dragon like you can for the new rocket for piece of mind I do love what red do but I don't have a bottomless pit of money

 

[Mike P.]

but is that for body or for sensor only, as I said I think the MX sensor wasn't even covered now I could be wrong but it seems people could be getting things confused, though that could just be me. Either way I'm waiting to see things roll out before I make a decision as some things still remain to be clarified.

Buying new would give you a 1 year warranty on everything (sensor and body). The upgrade gives you whatever warranty you've go left on the body and only 90days on the sensor.

 

[A. Clint Litton]

Warranty is super important. I know some people have had zero problems with their cameras, but others have had issues that required costly repairs. Red has always been relatively fair in dealing with issues I've experienced personally, but $5k repair stemming from no apparent misuse is hard to take if it's not covered. Outside insurance is an option, but that doesn't guarantee coverage.

To put things in perspective, the MX upgrade for the original Red One came with a 90-day warranty as well, but by the time the MX was rolling out, most users' cameras were outside of the original warranty period, so it effectively gave them more warranty than what they had before sending the camera in for the upgrade. Here we have a situation where it seems like less will be covered after the upgrade than before if the owner still has more than 90 days warranty remaining on their camera.

I love my camera, and I love what I have been able to accomplish with it. I imagine this new sensor will be an upgrade that feels like a new camera, which I would very much like to look forward to as a filmmaker. What I'm not crazy about is this uneasy feeling that goes along with it...feels like it might be too much of a risk. Sure, one could make the case that without risk there is no reward, but as a small independent camera owner without the deep pockets and resources to just plunge another $24k into a new camera if things go south, I wonder if I need the potential reward. I don't want to buy another camera, certainly not from another manufacturer, but I also want to feel confidence that the camera I choose to invest in will be backed by the people who have engineered it.