NatGeo WHALES Magenta/Green Issue Underwater - Have you seen this?

[Jeff Whitehurst]

Ok, I took a crack at it. RCX only.
Hereʻs the RMDʻs : www.kipukafilms.com/JeffWHumpy/JeffWHumpy.zip

 

[Hugh Miller]

Just to say that the problem is not an Epic specific one. I've seen magenta colours like that in RAW stills for years and it just has to be graded out. Good underwater graders are hard to find and immensely valuable!

 

[Phil Holland]

Hi Michael,

I played around with your images for a bit. I've done a relatively small amount of underwater ocean color work over the years, but in the bit that I have done I've seen weirdness in the realm of what's happening here. I don't know exactly what is causing it, but it certainly has the appearance of IR contamination. I've researched it a bit and have a sneaky suspicion that it has something to do with the red channel absorption and may be effected by depth/water temperature. In a similar way that Hot Mirrors provide not so desirable results on really cold days. I'm sure there are guys out there who have likely experienced what you're seeing and would have more knowledge on the subject.


Anyhow. The good news is that there's a ton of color in the files and they can be pushed around.

These are the two looks I liked the most during a few minutes of playing around with them. You can indeed limit that magenta and still extract warm tones from the barnacles, which is likely close to a proper correction. Matt did a good job of illustrating that.

On this wide shot those warm tones are pushed back into the blue abyss a bit. This is due to the distance from the camera and the red absorption that occurs naturally as objects get further away from the camera underwater. I left a bit more green in this version to help separate the big guy's right fin from the bg.

Here are a few other directions I stumbled across along the way:

Really lovely shots. I'm a bit envious of you, Pawel, and Jeff who get to swim with these large beautiful beasts. I was Cousteau Kid when I was younger and still love to snorkel.

 

[Juan Melara]

I'd approach this shot the same way as a shot that has human skin - balance the whale skin and let everything else fall wherever it ends up. Don't worry about the water, after all your focus is on the whale...

Depending on your workflow you want to maximise the information available to the colourist further on down as they might not have the luxury of going back to the R3Ds... Correcting the water is then a simple task with a quick secondary...

Quick go in RCX:

 

[David Battistella]

Here is a slightly desaturated to go for the grey...

Same image just with the saturation pushed up.

 

[Jeff Whitehurst]

Nice grades, everybody I always like these threads where everybody takes a shot and comes up with their own look. The main point of course being not whoʻs look is "better" but to prove once again that the power of REDCODE RAW is a wonderful thing, especially in challenging conditions like UW.

What I was trying to do is make these shots look like every other camera shooting underwater right out of RCX without a bunch of screwing around.

Roger on that. My philosophy is that if you want to have footage that looks decent right out of the gate, a good practice is when possible to set a WB in the moment. Thatʻs what "every other camera" would do, right? Itʻs true that WB is meta, but to what settings to choose in post? A pectoral seems a good target, but thatʻs obviously not the same spectrum or reflectance as a true reference card, and is being additionally being recorded at a variable distance through the intense filtration of water. I believe that shooting a calibrated card at a consistent distance narrows that color variance down to the single factor of depth.

Really lovely shots. I'm a bit envious of you, Pawel, and Jeff who get to swim with these large beautiful beasts. I was Cousteau Kid when I was younger and still love to snorkel.

Anytime, Phil it would be an honor to take you for a swim. The thing about these whales though, is you need a permit to get this close, so I unfortunately have to stay back and watch them from a distance. Maybe Michael can sneak us in on his permit sometime

 

[Pawel Achtel]

Hi Michael,

I played around with your images for a bit. I've done a relatively small amount of underwater ocean color work over the years, but in the bit that I have done I've seen weirdness in the realm of what's happening here. I don't know exactly what is causing it, but it certainly has the appearance of IR contamination. I've researched it a bit and have a sneaky suspicion that it has something to do with the red channel absorption and may be effected by depth/water temperature. In a similar way that Hot Mirrors provide not so desirable results on really cold days. I'm sure there are guys out there who have likely experienced what you're seeing and would have more knowledge on the subject..

There is no IR underwater. There is A LOT of UV in shallow water on a sunny day.

Also, water is a very effective colour filter of about 0.12 red. This means that you lose 1 stop of red for every 2.5 m. It's not linear.

There is also a loss of contrast. Depending on the water properties as well as the optics the loss of contrast varies. Submersible lenses produce higher contrast than dome ports. Dome ports produce higher contrast than flat ports.

These are the reasons simple colour correction doesn't work very well and more involved methods are needed.

Nice grads from you and Jeff, BTW.

 

[Phil Holland]

There is no IR underwater. There is A LOT of UV in shallow water on a sunny day.

I understand that for sure. It just has the appearance of that IR contamination. Some sort of UV protection would be desirable then? Perhaps a UV cold mirror?

 

[Ryan De Franco]

I like Juan's concept. Too often I'm told R3Ds will be used for the grades and then the "offline" footage is graded and broadcast. Better to have color accurate whales and funky water than a mish mash of sorta funky whales and sorta funky water.

Red sees color in an interesting way. I have come to expect something new on every shoot. Regardless of creative filtering, grading, exposure and lighting, the camera has her own thoughts about how the scene should look. I like that.

Sometimes she makes the world look better than our eyes see it, like film. Othertimes there are odd issues, like film.

And on the 8th day God said let there be colorists.

 

[Pawel Achtel]

I understand that for sure. It just has the appearance of that IR contamination. Some sort of UV protection would be desirable then? Perhaps a UV cold mirror?

he he he, UV is much easier to filter out than IR...

I also forgot another important property of u/w lighting: the ambient light is very heavily polarised.

 

[Phil Holland]

Yep. UV is easier and cheaper to handle. Interesting about the polarized light. I'm researching a bit of the science behind it. Makes sense.

Gah. I'm so green when it comes to shooting underwater. I'm merely a land lubber cinematographer. Everything gets crazy in the tub.


@Jeff - I'll try to get my diving training in towards the end of the year perhaps. I've got so much to do top side first.

 

[John Fairstein]

Magenta green crossover, a legacy from REDOne. Look at foreheads that look excessively pink when the overall grade is neutral. Try correction in curve by pulling down magenta highlights. Probably no need to correct toe.

 

[Michael Romano]

This thread has gone into AWESOME mode! I'm working straight through right now but I'll have some more though provoking posts when I get a change. You guys have been great!

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Perhaps something along the lines of:

 

[jimhare]

I love this thread! Some of those grades look truly awesome.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Checked in the grading suite. Something like this would be suggested.

 

[Greg F]

Not to nitpick I just do not want the owner to get in trouble. It should be labeled what the NMFS Permit is.

Also was it being suggested to UV filter underwater?

 

[Pawel Achtel]

Yes, it was. But this is not where the main problem is.

BTW, we design and make custom filters for underwater use.

 

[Michael Romano]

Not to nitpick I just do not want the owner to get in trouble. It should be labeled what the NMFS Permit is.

Also was it being suggested to UV filter underwater?

NMFS PERMIT #14451

We fly our flag with pride as it was a *serious* amount of paperwork to get the permit! No animals were harassed or harmed in the course of our photography excursion which was really more like a tag along for us. The scientists kind of run the show and we get shots in when we can.

I think I'm going to test UV, IR and some standard "Underwater" filtration in a controlled test when I get the time.

The good news is that in Resolve I'm able to create not only an acceptable image but a damn good looking one. The bad news here is that offlines for the FCP world look a little lackluster. At least the image is close enough that if they do grade with my offlines (I rendered in full debayer with this in mind) they can fix it right up in the final CC.

 

[Greg F]

NMFS PERMIT #14451

We fly our flag with pride as it was a *serious* amount of paperwork to get the permit! No animals were harassed or harmed in the course of our photography excursion which was really more like a tag along for us. The scientists kind of run the show and we get shots in when we can.

I think I'm going to test UV, IR and some standard "Underwater" filtration in a controlled test when I get the time.

The good news is that in Resolve I'm able to create not only an acceptable image but a damn good looking one. The bad news here is that offlines for the FCP world look a little lackluster. At least the image is close enough that if they do grade with my offlines (I rendered in full debayer with this in mind) they can fix it right up in the final CC.

And I know you are proud of the flag, its a honor to have one flying and do work under just would hate to see somebody get in trouble

I have been doing heaps of testing since I am out twice a week going to depths around 35m and there abouts.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/73216722/A002_C040_0319SL.0001955.tif

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/73216722/A002_C040_0319SL.0001955F.R3D

If you care to look at 28m this is what I did. If you have any ideas and want me to test I am all ears I will be bait for sharks and test odd ideas