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You are told you MUST mount on-camera for sound... do you MKH-416, 3D Mic Pro, or ???

Dave Harrison

Dave Harrison

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Hi everyone,


I'll be joining a lot of you in owning an Epic in the next few weeks and I am very excited about it (he says jumping out of his skin!).


I've figured out most of my requirements but there is still a single nagging question that I haven't been able to find a definitive answer to.


Ill basically be getting the EPIC-X PRO COLLECTION give or take a few items and one of things I've added is the PRO I/O MODULE.


For regular shooting ill have a sound person with a Sennheiser MKH-416 / Mitra Corp. - 3D Mic Pro with a Zoom H4n as am lucky enough to have those at my disposal.


However, I want to ensure I get a decent scratch track out of the camera at a minimum - not just to help syncing but for in the situation where it is camera only and no additional sound will able to be captured. Behind the scenes type footage where you aren't always give the luxury of a good dedicated sound person! (yes, there are divas, oh I meant 'people', who have told me in the past that no more than 1 person is allowed in the their dressing room and no you may not set your gear up in advance so must be ready to shoot at an instant)


I've read a lot on this forum about people's suggestiosn but I'd like to ask people more familiar with sound their advice to either:


a) mount the MKH-416 to the the camera
b) mount the zoom or
c) mount a Rode Videomic Pro that I normally have on my DSLR - which i can't cut any cords on
c) those options are crazy and my better suggestion is...


If you can give me your preference and then your suggested setup that would be great. I won't pretend to be an expert in audio nor how i should correctly connect this all to my Epic.


Thanks in advance for your advice and if you're in Melbourne ill buy you a coffee for your time. :)




Cheers,




Dave.
 
Hi Dave,

It is certainly possible to get a decent recording out of the camera mounted microphone.

I have a Sanken CS-1 short shot gun which is much lighter and shorter than the Sennheiser. Get a K - tek extender which gives you some distance from the camera. You can mount it to the camera via a little shoe slider.

You will read a lot on this forum on how you can't record decent sound to the Epic X. That is a load of nonsense. You can actually record very good quality sound to the Epic X indeed if you know what you are doing.
 
the audio out of epic is plenty good for dialogue, don't let anyone tell you different. old problems from way back on the first round of red ones still seem to make the rounds in the rumor mill.
 
Hi Rob,

Thanks for saying that. I've been getting a number of people telling me the audio was rubbish - then I ask them how long they have been using their Epic and they say they havent - just what they've 'heard'!

Great idea with the Sanken + extender - I think ill do that for sure. Thanks for that advise!

The last paragraph put a big smile on my face - exactly what I wanted to hear.

Thanks again. :)
 
Paul Hazlett said:
the audio out of epic is plenty good for dialogue, don't let anyone tell you different. old problems from way back on the first round of red ones still seem to make the rounds in the rumor mill.
Click to expand...

Thanks Paul. Great to hear you and Rob agree on that.

Sounds like as long as you know what you're doing you will be fine.

Cheers!
 
From what I've heard, when the Scarlet's fan is set to its default speed (50%), the camera is so noisy that recording sound with an on-camera mic makes it useless. I guess it's the same with an Epic. So, sound experts, which fan speed setting would you recommend and is it safe to run the camera below 50% ?

Is an extender enough to get rid of the fan noise and if yes, what is the best length ?

Thanks,

Kristin
 
I dont know how keen you are (translated = whether you are prepared to spend the money) but one of the first things I did was buy the action productions base plate which shifts the silly inputs from the front to proper XLR inputs at the back of the camera. That made a big difference to life.

The K - Tek mount I am talking about has an offset and moves the mic away and to the side of the camera. Available from B & H.

The Sankens really are good microphones - I also chose the Sanken CSe3 (over Senn MKH60 and all the other standard contenders). It has quite amazing off axis rejection.

When people talk about sound issues with the camera I think it is important to distinguish between issues like fan noise and the absolute quality of the inputs themselves. The fan settings on the camera are very flexible and for me at least have not caused any real issues - through practical experience you will find what the best settings are for different situations. The one issue which I agree is annoying is the hair dryer effect while you are NOT recording. It is very noticeable on set in a small room.

The quality of the input themselves is a different matter. I suggest you try a test in which you record dialogue direct to camera using 1. mic level 2. line level (only possible through the Pro i/o) and then finally compare that to say the sound you get from recording double sound to an industry standard device like the Sound Devices recorder. I found this out for myself one day when I did not have my Sound Devices 744T handy and had to record an interview straight to camera. I was pleasantly surprised.

Cheers
 
Rob Castiglione said:
I dont know how keen you are (translated = whether you are prepared to spend the money) but one of the first things I did was buy the action productions base plate which shifts the silly inputs from the front to proper XLR inputs at the back of the camera. That made a big difference to life.
Click to expand...


Do you have a link for the base plate you have? B & H are already getting a fair chunk of my money so I might as well add to that list!




The K - Tek mount I am talking about has an offset and moves the mic away and to the side of the camera. Available from B & H.
Click to expand...


Yes, i found that. Loved the offset. For others interested its: http://impx.tv/10nGTPt




The Sankens really are good microphones - I also chose the Sanken CSe3 (over Senn MKH60 and all the other standard contenders). It has quite amazing off axis rejection.
Click to expand...


Looking at B&H Ive found the Sanken CS-1e short shotgun, http://impx.tv/Wdpzg9, would you advise this mic for this use?




The one issue which I agree is annoying is the hair dryer effect while you are NOT recording. It is very noticeable on set in a small room.
Click to expand...


I must admit, I'm much more accepting of this when you're not recording but yes I can see it would get a bit irritating!


The quality of the input themselves is a different matter. I suggest you try a test in which you record dialogue direct to camera using 1. mic level 2. line level (only possible through the Pro i/o) and then finally compare that to say the sound you get from recording double sound to an industry standard device like the Sound Devices recorder. I found this out for myself one day when I did not have my Sound Devices 744T handy and had to record an interview straight to camera. I was pleasantly surprised.
Click to expand...


Yes, thats what Ill do and ill do a proper report on here when I'm done.


Thanks again all.
 
Terry, when I said "From what I've heard", I was referring to the sound of the camera I heard on set, not to a rumor ;-)

So, what fan setting are you lowering to and is is still safe for the camera, ie isn't it getting too hot, because here the Scarlet set to 50% is getting quite hot at normal temperatures.

Kristin
 
I often bring my shooting setting down to 35% (and I'll compensate by cranking it up on stand-by) and, to me, it seems nearly silent. I don't tend to do long takes in my work (usually less than 2 minutes) and I am not talking about working in desert conditions. I am also using a Scarlet which, I think, has less of a heat issue than Epic.

That said, if it gets to be too much, let's face it, you are going to have to move the mic off the camera to get sound that is good for more than just a reference track. My contention is that sound doesn't have to be an issue with these cameras.
 
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Here is a link to the Action Products Audio adapter and Riser Plate. It is a bit opaque from the the website but you need three parts - the Audio Adapter, the riser plate and the 15mm Rod mount audio part. The 3.5 mm jack cable runs underneath the camera to the XLRs on the back. The 3.5mm jacks themselves are covered by the 15 mm Rod mount audio part. Once you have put it all on, you can just forget about the whole 3.5mm issue. Only drawback - it is not cheap! However, I think that it wins the award for the best and most functional third party accessory for the Epic Camera out there.

http://www.actionproducts.ch/portfolio_category/risers_audio_solutions/

The link that you provided to B & H is to the updated version of the CS -1. I have the older version which I purchased second hand.

Concerning the K - Tek, you can purchase a cold shoe which bolts neatly onto the top of the Epic.

Finally, the K - Tek short microphone holder is perfect for the Sanken CS-1 and slides directly onto the their offset riser thingy: http://ktekbooms.com/k-cam-ssm/

It took me at least a week's research to sort that out and I am happy to share it !

Best
 
lets be clear about what audio you are trying to record, and under which typical shooting conditions.

As someone who works alternately as a camera operator/DoP and a production sound mixer I have the following experience based opinion.

The Epic with an A box or Action products rig can get you news segment grade audio without an external recorder. It will do so in large rooms, not small ones, and until the fan comes on at 40% or faster.

It does NOT currently yield adequate quality audio for use in a dramatic production. This is not just because of the fan noise. The audio circuit is inferior to all production grade audio recorders, and to several competitor's cameras.

Also, putting the mic on the camera is placing it in the wrong place to capture an actor's performance. Even on a camera with a great audio stage, and even if you have a high quality audio recorder bolted to your camera.
The mic does need to capture camera perspective audio, but that does not mean it should always be pointed down the lens axis, and a few inches behind the focal plane.

If you are using your epic as an ENG camera, then yes, I would consider the Sanken Cs-3e, because it will reject much of the camera noises. If you are dealing with acting, or music performances, then get production sound mixer, and use your on camera mic as reference track.. and at that point.. consider a Rode NTG2 with an AA battery in it..
 
So, from the title of your thread, "you are told you must mount on-camera for sound." I have to assume you meant you were told you must mount a mic on-camera for sound.

When someone in production tells me this I agree to do this on one condition, they have to mount a camera on their mics.
 
Peter Strietmann said:
So, from the title of your thread, "you are told you must mount on-camera for sound." I have to assume you meant you were told you must mount a mic on-camera for sound.

When someone in production tells me this I agree to do this on one condition, they have to mount a camera on their mics.
Click to expand...

Ha ha. While I would LOVE to give that response probably wouldn't have gone down very well with this person as they are a singer with lots of dancing - although thinking about this person with an Epic strapped to their mic does bring a big smile to my face :)
 
Rob Castiglione said:
Here is a link to the Action Products Audio adapter and Riser Plate. It is a bit opaque from the the website but you need three parts - the Audio Adapter, the riser plate and the 15mm Rod mount audio part. The 3.5 mm jack cable runs underneath the camera to the XLRs on the back. The 3.5mm jacks themselves are covered by the 15 mm Rod mount audio part. Once you have put it all on, you can just forget about the whole 3.5mm issue. Only drawback - it is not cheap! However, I think that it wins the award for the best and most functional third party accessory for the Epic Camera out there.
Click to expand...


Looks like a well thought out solution.
I see what you mean re the price. Looks like its:
The audio adapter: XXXX http://www.innocinema.com/eu/camera...nproducts-epic-scarlet-xlr-audio-adaptor.html
Riser plate QR: XXXX http://www.innocinema.com/camera-ac...epic-scarlet-riserplate-quickrelease-982.html
15mm RodMount Audio: XXXX http://www.innocinema.com/camera-ac...cts-epic-scarlet-15mm-rodmount-audio-998.html


So. around US$XXX or AUD$XXX plus shipping. Not cheap, you're right, but if its the best solution its hard to argue with.


Rob Castiglione said:
The link that you provided to B & H is to the updated version of the CS -1. I have the older version which I purchased second hand.
Click to expand...


OK, thanks for that. Other reviews I've been reading look OK too so ill certainly give it a go.


Rob Castiglione said:
Concerning the K - Tek, you can purchase a cold shoe which bolts neatly onto the top of the Epic.
Click to expand...


Any one you favour based upon your experience? (I realise its a pretty basic part but tried and true is always a good place to start!)


Finally, the K - Tek short microphone holder is perfect for the Sanken CS-1 and slides directly onto the their offset riser thingy: http://ktekbooms.com/k-cam-ssm/
Click to expand...


The shoe mounted shock looks pretty good http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/326968-REG/K_Tek_K_CAM_SSM_Camera_Shoemounting_Shockmount.html. Do you have a link for the K-Tek short mic holder you are talking about? I'm on B&H but don't think I've found what you meant.


What do you think about the shockmount in this kit? http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/821183-REG/Sanken__CS_1e_Deluxe_Shotgun_Microphone.html


It took me at least a week's research to sort that out and I am happy to share it !
Click to expand...


I appreciate it a lot! Its great know there is such a large group of people willing to help each other in this community.


Rob, I've been trying to check out your website but keep getting "Http/1.1 Service Unavailable". Let me know when its up.
 
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I think that Dave made it perfectly clear that he was not intending to use the on board microphone to record sound for drama.

Concerning the the quality of the on board circuitry is there any objective evidence that it is inferior to that of other cameras around? Of course it is not in the same league as dedicated professional mic preamps - I can certainly tell the difference between my Pendulum Audio MDP -1 and the the Epic! However, I think it is time for some evidence based assertions.

What would be useful would actual audio samples from the Epic compared with other cameras and with say the Sound Devices 7 series recorders as a reference point. Lets see if people can tell the difference between them and which people prefer.
 
I have re-read the OP. In a situation like this, I would give serious thought to a camera connected, but not on camera solution..

1st)If you are in a typical dressing room, you are also fighting the of hypercardioid mic vs shotgun mic.. and the shotgun mic is not the best answer.
2nd) absolutely get the mic off the camera and pointed at the talent's mouth.

Gorillapod or other small flexible tripod/clamp with a shockmount to hotshoe adapter.. (Rode makes a very reasonably priced shockmount for this.
.. wireless cube capable of powering your short shotgun mic .. 416/Sanken CS1 or CS3/or schoeps 641
on board camera wireless receiver to Action products plate or A-box.
Or.. run a cable to the camera from the mic.

this is a viable one person solution to deploying a mic in a dressing room and getting useable sound into the camera.

RE: testing other cameras v SD 7 series recorder v Epic onboard preamp: It really doesn't matter what the operator thinks is acceptable. It matters what the post production sound editor and sound designer consider better sounding/more flexible/better. I assure you that they don't want camera track if there is ANY other choice available.
This is a situation where the camera operator's vote does not count.

I did not mention which competitors cameras have better and more reliable camera audio, because this forum is dedicated to the Red cameras which members are going to use, due to the image capabilities.

I will also note that *no* pro camcorders yet have a decent headphone amp, capable of revealing the grade of sound being recorded.
It is necessary to tap the line out of camera, or to load the media onto an edit quite to evaluate what you truly captured.
 
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