EPIC-ALEXA-BMC overexposure...

[luigivaltulini]

some comments guys???

test by Ryan.
http://nofilmschool.com/2013/03/bla...epic-arri-alexa-raw-test-part-3-overexposure/

from what I understand that's the way,
ARRI Alexa gets up to 16 stops of dynamic range, but only 13 (roughly) stops that you would use safely.
BMC gets up to 12.5 stops of dynamic range, but only 10 (roughly) stops that you would use safely.
RED gets up to 13.5 stops of dynamic range, but only 10 (roughly) stops that you would use safely.

At this NAB RED should be ready to update all the epic Dragon without delay.
But Dragon will '16 stops as Alexa as now?

 

[Patrick Tresch]

16 stops for Alexa. Some one smoked something!

Pat

 

[luigivaltulini]

16 stops for Alexa. Some one smoked something!

Pat

Ciao Pat,
I do not know.
It must be said that watching the test done by Ryan, Alexa be scary compared to Epic, if there are 3 stops difference be many do not you think?.
Take a look also at this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSbsI7Tn9Cg

The question I ask at this time, but Dragon be 16 but 13 stop usable as Alexa now or will be 'superior?
What do you think?

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Well the test you show me is strange as the Épic is the only one with a correct color level. They should have made a picture with the other caméras.

Pat

 

[sander kamp]

You can download the raw files yourself and yes, the Epic looks quite bad in this example.

I guess the test is set up to maximize the differences between the cameras but it's not really a real-world test as nobody would let the highlights blow out in a close-up like that.

 

[Vadim Bobkovsky]

Well, let's hope the Dragon holds severe overexposure and rolls into highlights as well as motion picture film (or better). Seeing in the dark is awesome, but some complaints about "the look of digital" lies in the filed of differences in handling "too much exposure" between film and previous generation of digital sensors. CMOS technology proved it can look into deep shadows, next frontier is the blazing highlights

 

[Mike P.]

There's a thread in the Scarlet forum about DR and Exposure latitude, and it looks pretty clear (based on those graphs) that Alexa is ~16 total with ~13-14 Exposure latitude and that Mysterium-X is ~13 with ~10-11 exposure latitude. The irony with that thread is that the Alexa (and 5D) data was taken from Ryan's other tests, but the Mysterium-X data was taken by another REDuser (and is basically exactly the same as Ryan's MX data/results)...

...It would make sense though, as Arri claims that the Alexa has 14 stops and RED claim 13.5 stops of "DR"; the difference is when Arri says it, they mean 14stops useable exposure latitude, whereas RED mean 13.5 total (with about 10 useable). And to be fair, Alexa footage has always looked to have substantially more latitude than MX than just the 0.5stops difference on paper.

 

[John Marchant]

Technical ability has plenty of scope for virtuosity; every camera is a different instrument. So yet again the only tests worth anything to me are those I carry out myself, as I know for certain that those are end results I can create. I wish everyone thought that way.

 

[Mike P.]

Technical ability has plenty of scope for virtuosity; every camera is a different instrument. So yet again the only tests worth anything to me are those I carry out myself, as I know for certain that those are end results I can create. I wish everyone thought that way.

This is true. Along with Epic (especially Scarlet) being far more affordable than an Alexa, so it's somewhat of a non-starter for most owner-ops. I mean, I look at this test - https://vimeo.com/31573873 - and they look pretty much the same (RED1 a little better actually) after correction and that's with Alexa's extra few stops of latitude in a scene with broad dynamic range.

That said, it would explain quite a bit about what helps Alexa look the way it does... Also, as a film replacement, isn't 14 stops (useable) precisely where film lies? I know it's more than 10 or even 13.

Take a look also at this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSbsI7Tn9Cg
The question I ask at this time, but Dragon be 16 but 13 stop usable as Alexa now or will be 'superior?
What do you think?

Is that Epic footage REDlogFilm? It looks RG2 or 3, which definitely puts the footage at a disadvantage (visually) when comparing the "latitude" with the F55's S-Log and Alexa's LogC (which is what the Sony and Alexa were set to)... So yeah, I think that test is way worse than Ryan's (at least you can check out Ryan's raw files.)

I think that on paper Dragon is ~20stops... so even if that's total DR (and only 80% is useable/exposure latitude) that'd still be 16+ stops useable (aka a shit load.) Of course, 16 stops vs 14 stops is far less dramatic than the 20 stops vs 14 stops, which most people thought (or still think) would be the case. It'd be interesting to know if the same holds true for Sony (aka the F5/F55 have ~14stops exposure latitude, but even more dynamic range)?

 

[luigivaltulini]

This is true. Along with Epic (especially Scarlet) being far more affordable than an Alexa, so it's somewhat of a non-starter for most owner-ops. I mean, I look at this test - https://vimeo.com/31573873 - and they look pretty much the same (RED1 a little better actually) after correction and that's with Alexa's extra few stops of latitude in a scene with broad dynamic range.

That said, it would explain quite a bit about what helps Alexa look the way it does... Also, as a film replacement, isn't 14 stops (useable) precisely where film lies? I know it's more than 10 or even 13.



Is that Epic footage REDlogFilm? It looks RG2 or 3, which definitely puts the footage at a disadvantage (visually) when comparing the "latitude" with the F55's S-Log and Alexa's LogC (which is what the Sony and Alexa were set to)... So yeah, I think that test is way worse than Ryan's (at least you can check out Ryan's raw files.)

I think that on paper Dragon is ~20stops... so even if that's total DR (and only 80% is useable/exposure latitude) that'd still be 16+ stops useable (aka a shit load.) Of course, 16 stops vs 14 stops is far less dramatic than the 20 stops vs 14 stops, which most people thought (or still think) would be the case. It'd be interesting to know if the same holds true for Sony (aka the F5/F55 have ~14stops exposure latitude, but even more dynamic range)?

ok guys,
I believe that Dragon to 18 stops (15/16 usable), almost 1 or 2 stops in more than Alexa .
So as you say there will be 'very little difference, we gain the fact that it is less noisy.
And if it were not so! Dragon would be equal to Alexa at the moment!:rolleyes5::rolleyes5:

 

[Björn Benckert]

It's nice doing tests and not using the full potential of the camera. As he is not really turning on HDRx... is he.

I hate that kind of comparison.

The oppsite would be to bring up the iso of the alexa to 2500 and have a complety burned out image that could not be fixed in post and not mention that the camera can actually shoot 800 ASA baked that looks twice as good.

HDRx would blow the alexa out of the water for this shot.

It's the same when people take the epic and shoot 2k and say that epic is far softer than the alexa since even epic 2k is far softer than HD on alexa.... Then when trying to tell them, to take the 5k image sharpening it and then down res it to HD and then compare they just mumble something stupid that post sharpening is not whats in the test.

But again, the more people out there that do not understand the better it keeps the completion on a nice level..

 

[Mike P.]

ok guys,
I believe that Dragon to 18 stops (15/16 usable), almost 1 or 2 stops in more than Alexa .
So as you say there will be 'very little difference, we gain the fact that it is less noisy.
And if it were not so! Dragon would be equal to Alexa at the moment!:rolleyes5::rolleyes5:

Whoa, whoa, 2 stops difference is a hell of a lot when we've already surpassed film's exposure latitude... I was just saying that comparing 16 to 14 useable, on paper, is less dramatic than saying 20 vs 14 (which I think most people are doing.) And, all this is anecdotal until we actually use Dragon anyway... For all we know it could be 25 stops total, and 20 useable (OR 20stops total, but all of it useable because of how clean the sensor is).

 

[luigivaltulini]

Whoa, whoa, 2 stops difference is a hell of a lot when we've already surpassed film's exposure latitude... I was just saying that comparing 16 to 14 useable, on paper, is less dramatic than saying 20 vs 14 (which I think most people are doing.) And, all this is anecdotal until we actually use Dragon anyway... For all we know it could be 25 stops total, and 20 useable (OR 20stops total, but all of it useable because of how clean the sensor is).

yes Mike:001_smile:,
sure, we just have to wait for the NAb ....

 

[Martin Stevens]

This thread is going to be VERY interesting.
:sifone::sifone::sifone:

But I don't see the Alexa having 16 stops of DR.

Film has 14.5 at it's best.....so they say.

 

[luigivaltulini]

This thread is going to be VERY interesting.
:sifone::sifone::sifone:

But I don't see the Alexa having 16 stops of DR.

Film has 14.5 at it's best.....so they say.

Certainly Martin without a doubt, 14.5 is film , but in this moment Alexa is a 13 stop usable and Epic is a 10 stop usable.

Waiting for some posts by Jim on Dragon ...

 

[David Battistella]

This test is totally flawed. Why?

Because its like testing three different film stocks with one lighting setup. Just because the lighting was metered an an ISO was set, it does not mean the tool is being used to its full potential, it's just that the tool was pointed at a scene with a uniform lighting set up.

A DP including Ryan himself could make all of those cameras look great in the same lighting set up.

but this is more like a film stock comparison than a camera test, and we all know the are ways to extend highlight rolloff with the epic using techniques so specific to that camera/(stock, sensor, etc)

when I see these, exact same lighting type tests with three different cameras it drives me nuts because there is never any recommendation. Of how to make the camera look effing great, which countless talented DPs have done, with each one of those cameras.

its just a huge jack off and a waste of time.

David

 

[Jay Birch]

HDRx would blow the alexa out of the water for this shot.

"for this shot" .... exactly, but you can't talk about HDRx as something that works on every shot, like the native DRs do.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

from what I understand that's the way,
ARRI Alexa gets up to 16 stops of dynamic range, but only 13 (roughly) stops that you would use safely.

LOL. Uh, nope. Even ARRI won't make that claim. Alexa shows about 13.5 to 14 stops. About right at 13 usable in ideal circumstances.

BMC gets up to 12.5 stops of dynamic range, but only 10 (roughly) stops that you would use safely.

I don't know, that seems right from what I've seen and the little bit I've played with the BMCC. I think it could do better than the 9.5-10 stops if BM could get their sensor under control. It does a terrible job at highlight rolloff and bright area tempering. They have the exposure limit black-out like the original M sensor (and most all CMOS sensors) have where you get the black dot in the middle of the sun or other white-hot objects. Simple to fix in post, yet most people never do for some odd reason.

RED gets up to 13.5 stops of dynamic range, but only 10 (roughly) stops that you would use safely.

That's complete rubbish. 13.5 stops yes and we've seen several charts to choose it. Under ideal conditions (as it always has to be for any camera), we're getting 12 to 13 stops out of EPIC. If they were having trouble at over 10 stops, with the EPIC or Scarlet, then they're doing something wrong. Rating the camera wrong or improperly post-processing their RAW. We were getting 9.5 to 10.5 stops of usable range on the RED One with original M sensor and it was rated at 11 to 11.5...

The sad part is so many people do get lost along the way when working with RED and processing the RAW, understanding exposure, etc.. It's super simple, but unless they put in the effort to learn the best practices, they won't get the results. Same thing with shooting ARRI RAW, but with ARRI RAW we have the ability to apply the LUT from the simultaneously-recorded ProRes or DNxHD proxy as a place to start if we don't want to begin with drab and compressed-looking RAW.

When it comes to usable, real-world DR, the EPIC and Alexa are nearly identical. Only your colorist will know for sure. And both are right there with the best film stocks, IMO. Film still produces superior reaction in the highlights and better flesh-tones right out of the camera. ARRI has done a phenomenal job with their default looks to mimic some of what film does and to preserve flesh tones. Both the EPIC and Alexa have superior dark detail response compared to film.

At this NAB RED should be ready to update all the epic Dragon without delay.
But Dragon will '16 stops as Alexa as now?

With all the extra DR afforded by Dragon, I think we're going to see a lot more poorly-graded footage. It's not the magic bullet that people want it to be.

Dragon should give us 16+ usable stops out of a registering range of close to 18. At least that's what I'm expecting based on what's been said and shown thus far. This should surpass what the best film stocks are currently delivering. At least in terms of range. If the noise response is as good as claimed, or as good as what we're seeing with the monochrome EPIC, then we're in for a treat there as well.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Ciao Pat,
I do not know.
It must be said that watching the test done by Ryan, Alexa be scary compared to Epic, if there are 3 stops difference be many do not you think?.
Take a look also at this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSbsI7Tn9Cg

The question I ask at this time, but Dragon be 16 but 13 stop usable as Alexa now or will be 'superior?
What do you think?

Not sure what people think we're supposed to determine from youtube videos... Oddly enough, I thought the EPIC looked the best in all the examples, but whatever.... They apparently weren't interested in white-balancing any of the cameras though? I guess I'm not sure what they're trying to show here. it's not a test that represents real-world anything.

 

[Pablo Moreno]

16 stops for Alexa. Some one smoked something!

Pat

No they didn't. Alexa has 16 stop of DR, but is because Alexa does AUTO HDR on the sensor ACCORDING TO THIS PAGE (read at the bottom).. So is an unfair and an undocumented comparison, He is comparing oranges and apples..

I hope Dragon has that same feature, otherwise, without HDRx like they said, 18+ stops of DR are completely useless..