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Are low end shotgun mics just terrible?

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Matt W.

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Compared a Sennheiser 416, AT4073a, and AT835b side-by-side. No surprise which was the best. Big surprise is that the low end mic (AT835b) was terrible even compared with the cheapie 4073a. Are cheap shotguns (<$500) really this bad? Or is this broken? I want to unload it but almost feel bad selling an inferior piece of kit. It's not awful, just clearly in a whole different class.

I know this is a high end gear forum, but I'm surprised how bad this mic is even given its $200 retail price. Is this normal or not? Are all cheap shotguns bad? I kind of liked the AT897.
 
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I had an Audio Technica 897 which performed very well, so no I don't think it's all. The 897 is a great mic, especially for the price. Does it compare with a Schoeps? No, but it's very good. The AT was recommended to me years ago by BJ Purcell at Custom Supply and he was right. He's always been right about gear, I highly recommend them. I sold the mic and the new owner loved it also, plus it can be self-powered, which is a bonus.
 
That was my experience, too. I kind of regret selling mine. I'm wondering if my AT835b is subpar or somehow broken. It should be similar to the AT897 and I was planning to keep it as a back up until now.
 
If you are looking for a good alternative to Schoeps, I've always been relatively happy with my Okatava MK012 which has 3 capsules and a gain reduction capsule. The downside is, it can't be self powered. It is also susceptible on low end to things like wind (even small passes). I use mine with a ball gag and that solves it. This is the mic I turn to for dialogue when I don't have a dedicated sound person. For exterior, especially wider shots, there are far better mics for the job. The 416, 816, Schoeps CMIT5U, etc.

If you explore the Oktava, make sure to get it from this place. He has gone through the batches and handpicked the best ones. And by no means is it a Schoeps. But it's serviceable.
 
I have and like Oktavas.. but if you want an actual shotgun.. consider the RODE NTG1,2 or 3.
they all sound MUCH better than the 8 series AT shotguns.. and the NTG-2 can be self powered. It will sound better via phantom power.
The Rodes have been used on many recent tv shows splinter units in the USA (DONT ask me how I know). They are not as nice a 416, or a Schoeps, but are slightly less 'colored" than a 4073 (actually a decent sounding mic, btw).. and are around $275 postpaid.

yes... I do think the 835 is bad sounding. and I don't think the 897 is as nice sounding as the Rode.

they do sound better for dialog than a Senn k6/me66 combo.

I have used all the above mics, and the other ones mentioned in this thread.

Also, consider a 416T and a phantom to t power adapter...

Lastly.. the better mics get cheaper as you keep them around for a decade, and make money using them.

And where an AT897 (or a Rode or Oktava for that matter) may be considered "thrown in" to you package rate. A 416, a Sanken CS1, a Rode NTG3, or a Schoeps is something you can charge 25-40/day for as a rental.
 
Christopher Mills said:
I have and like Oktavas.. but if you want an actual shotgun.. consider the RODE NTG1,2 or 3.
they all sound MUCH better than the 8 series AT shotguns.. and the NTG-2 can be self powered. It will sound better via phantom power.
The Rodes have been used on many recent tv shows splinter units in the USA (DONT ask me how I know). They are not as nice a 416, or a Schoeps, but are slightly less 'colored" than a 4073 (actually a decent sounding mic, btw).. and are around $275 postpaid.

yes... I do think the 835 is bad sounding. and I don't think the 897 is as nice sounding as the Rode.

they do sound better for dialog than a Senn k6/me66 combo.

I have used all the above mics, and the other ones mentioned in this thread.

Also, consider a 416T and a phantom to t power adapter...

Lastly.. the better mics get cheaper as you keep them around for a decade, and make money using them.

And where an AT897 (or a Rode or Oktava for that matter) may be considered "thrown in" to you package rate. A 416, a Sanken CS1, a Rode NTG3, or a Schoeps is something you can charge 25-40/day for as a rental.
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Christopher, you just reminded me that I need to test my Rode NTG2 which I started to have problems with on a shoot recently. Thank you!
 
Have not had the opportunity to work with the Oktavas but understand they are a great value for the money. Unfortunately, there are a ton of Chinese counterfeits of the same being sold. Given the low cost, I don't know why they bother - but it might be you that pays the difference with your reputation. So, if purchasing, acquire from a known resource or vendor. (follow Steve's link)
With the different capsules and pad, a good alternative to a K6 system.

Consider the type of acquisition you are most often working when choosing the system to invest in. The 416 is great when you are working in unfriendly outdoor environments. Very durable workhorses. When moving onto a stage or more controlled environment, I shift over to the MKH series (have the 30, couple of 60's and a 70). I really like those mics - when I can, I use them. Yes, they need phantom power, but condenser's are looking for that power source anyhow.

That said, it's a good idea to have at least one dynamic mic in the arsenal - when you find yourself at a concert, capturing a car crash, explosion (fireworks) or other loud sound, a dynamic mic can handle a higher SPL than any condenser.

Something else to think about - if this is a long term investment, does the product line include a capsule or standalone mic that has a figure 8 pickup pattern?
Doesn't hurt to at least consider that possibility...

There is a reason audio engineers keep a number of choices at their disposal.

Where do you start? The choice of mic begins with knowing what type of audio you will most likely need to capture.
 
Thanks. If I get the money I'll look into the NTG3, but I'm pretty happy with the at4073a and I rarely rent a mic out. (I'm usually b camera.)

Is it normal that the 4073a is about 8db hotter than the 416 and almost 20db hotter than the 835b? Or is something wrong with my set up?
 
all 3 have different patterns and internals.. so not too surprised. Haven't side by sided my 416 with a 4073 in awhile.. But I think it was a little hotter..souded a touch better in small spaces than the 416..
the 835 is so not in the same quality league...
 
Thanks for the advice, everyone! The 835b is going on eBay to be used and disliked by some poor soul.
 
KETCH ROSSi said:
Sound is the other Half of the Image... Never go with any low end mics, never.
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Ketch is right.

My formal trade skill is in Audio. We always recon you can fool your eyes but you cant fool your ears.

As a point of fact my mice (I have a very large number) have mostly held or increased in value since I purchased them. I am still using as couple of sets of MKH 30/60 pairs I purchased in 1989. Other than TLC that havnt needed any service what so ever, even after a yak stood on once it still works and other than a small ding works perfectly well.

Dont by cheap mic's.
 
KETCH ROSSi said:
Sound is the other Half of the Image... Never go with any low end mics, never.
Click to expand...

Ketch is absolutely on target - sacrificing quality on audio gear is a mistake.
And in today's world, the right mics will outlive numerous cameras. Well worth the investment.

I remember one roundtable discussion over dinner when the subject of audio came up.
The camera ops (myself included) were talking about how the visual elements were the most important part of a film.
The audio guys countered that thought with this:

Two audiences are exposed to the same film in adjacent theaters.
One watches the film with no sound, the other listens with no picture.

Which audience can tell you afterwards about the plot, the arc of the story...

Sobering moment. When you are making a film, everything is important.
 
Mark Phelan said:
I had an Audio Technica 897 which performed very well, so no I don't think it's all. The 897 is a great mic, especially for the price. Does it compare with a Schoeps? No, but it's very good. The AT was recommended to me years ago by BJ Purcell at Custom Supply and he was right. He's always been right about gear, I highly recommend them. I sold the mic and the new owner loved it also, plus it can be self-powered, which is a bonus.
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Its great to see Custom Supply mentioned on the forum. I have purchased equipment from them for the past 18 years. Great vendor and their pricing has always been the best. Their advice and recommendations are always spot on as well.

Chris
 
Peter Proniewicz-Brooks said:
While the ears are a lot more sensitive to quality than they eyes the existence of foley artists suggests that the ears are foolable.
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Yes thats true to an extent but there should be more audio captured at source which avoids foley which can augment the final mix, Foley is now an expected element of sound design, but Id argue is always second best. I think the point is good microphones are essential, good does not always mean expensive.
 
Dave Blackham said:
Yes thats true to an extent but there should be more audio captured at source which avoids foley which can augment the final mix, Foley is now an expected element of sound design, but Id argue is always second best. I think the point is good microphones are essential, good does not always mean expensive.
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Actually I would add to this: Hiring a good sound recordist is essential until one has learned the art of placing microphones. Hence why someone with say an Oktava (cheap microphone) placed really well might get better sound than someone with a Schoeps placed poorly. Obviously the best of all worlds is having the skill/experience and the best mics. But for anyone starting out, I would say get what you can afford and learn how to use them. Then move on to the expensive mics.
 
Know your equipment and the limitations. Approach each shot differently. How many folks here have thought about using more than one type of shotgun/lav mic on a job? How many have thought about using more than one lens?

There is a ton more to it than hiding mics and getting them as close to talent as possible. On complex and critical shoots, hiring a professional would be much cheaper than hiring foley and post folks to cover up mistakes.
 
The 835 i that bad. Went through several mics, starting with that mic, then to the K6/ME66 (not as bad, but not great) now I'm using the Sanken CS-3e. Love it. Schoeps would be nice as well, but I like the Sanken for now.
 
Dave Blackham said:
Yes thats true to an extent but there should be more audio captured at source which avoids foley which can augment the final mix, Foley is now an expected element of sound design, but Id argue is always second best. I think the point is good microphones are essential, good does not always mean expensive.
Click to expand...

Undoubtable the real thing is almost always better (though in a few cases people are so used to the fake that that's what theyexpect, 'silenced' gunfire for example)
 
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