Going to Be a Bit "Upset" if We Don't Get Dragon Upgrade

[R Todd Eastman]

I remember the term "future-proof"!

 

[Jason Honeycutt]

Now that latter situation is what I really really REALLY hope for! Cuz I only been outta school 2 years, went to a shitty school that lacks the brand recognition of the legitimate ones (my state school degree is in video production not "film"). I got cancer right outta school, been trying to work as much as possible and managed to get a Scarlet but boy its been a pretty rough ride starting in this economy sickly and I been pretty disillusioned lately since its been relatively slow. I got a couple great people that hit me up regularly, but as a camera tech with no ability to have a reel I am basically relying on reference and word of mouth as I build a reel as an operator on spec while mostly unemployed.

My God, sorry to hear about the cancer... kinda puts my bitching about the Scarlet/Dragon into perspective, doesn't it. I hope you get better man, truly.

Second, I was accepted at USC and Northwestern but couldn't afford it, my parents were broke and I had to pay for college 100% so I went to a 'different' (but good) program... where I learned a ton (including the appreciation of Avid, after having to conform negative), but I had no contacts prior to moving to LA.

I'll say this about Hollywood. I'm super fortunate to have finally gotten in with a great network, where I'm staff... and they let me do my freelance shoots as well, even taking time off for the bigger ones. It was a rough go at first, like you're experiencing; how do you get experience if you can get hired... and how to you get hired if you don't have experience? Spec, spec, spec. And, at first, NEVER follow a job just because it pays well or you'll end up making corporate videos instead of doing what you love. You have to work on high profile things... for free if you have to... as a PA, anything to get in there and meet some great people.

It's all about trust, honestly. In LA, there are so many schmucks that ruin it for the talented people. So many people are great talkers but little in the talent department and it makes people lump you into that category. It's frustrating at first but think of it like this... would you hire a babysitter randomly? One you've never met, right off the street from Craigslist? I'd hope not. You ask around, "Who do you trust?" If there's a shoot for a client with 'some' money behind it, they're not going to trust someone they don't know.

I'd see if you can AC for a DP who gets legit work. Once you've proven yourself to him, he might throw you some jobs that he can't take. And/or, approach legit mid-level bands who'd need music videos (if the band is awful, it'll be distracting for your DP work).

At the end of the day, I'm totally with you in the film school boat but if you're good, you're good. A filmmaker from my program who 'made it' came back to speak to our class... to the horror of our professors, the first thing he said was, "You're wasting your time here... get the hell out and go make a film." There are soooooo many people, both good and bad, working out here who never went to film school. Never stop, never quit... the only people who've made it are the one who never gave up.

 

[Brian Merlen]

Thanks for the advice, much appreciated. Haven't done much AC work, lots of data wrangling, troubleshooting, workflow stuff and a little bit of post here and there. In general though I think if people, regardless of reasoning, aren't held to strict time frames for Dragon updates we all win. That would make a huge price point a little easier to stomach if I don't need the cash in hand by such and such a date... Cuz I am just not certain I can produce that kind of cash in time, as I am sure other people might struggle too. Which is why by avoiding the time frames and permitting all users to at some point be able to progress that would really go in tow with their mindset on the upgradability kind of nature of the DSMC program. So I am crossing my proverbial fingers that someone, anyone, out there at Red listens to my reasoning and at least considers it when going forth with their policies on whatever shape this thing takes...

 

[Carey Lee Coffey]

They did say it was more expensive than upgrading an Epic. Just pretend the upgrade cost for your Scarlet is 15K. All good now.

They also stated that it would be less than the cost of a new Scarlet... so 15K is at least 5k more than promised. No biggie... everything in life changes...

 

[Timur Civan]

They also stated that it would be less than the cost of a new Scarlet... so 15K is at least 5k more than promised. No biggie... everything in life changes...

A theory Tom Wong and i have devised is that the chip is now probably going to be 24bit, then will perhaps record the RAW in true 16bit, saturating the R3D file. That takes MASSIVE horsepower, but you need it to hold 16+ stops. The Alexa shoots 12bit 444 for a reason. It does not bother with 10bit 422 simply because LOG images grade better in a 12 bit container.

This may sound funny, but RED seemed surprised by how well the Dragon performed. Perhaps they were expecting 14-15 stop camera, and got much more. They may have had to adjust accordingly. How annoyed would you have been if the new architecture did not hold (lets say) 17 stops, but ws artificially limited at 15 to make the hardware cheaper. When RED gets a shiny new toy to show off... they go for it. They are not known to be meek.

 

[George Butterfield]

I'm going to be furious if we don't because why in the world would I have bought this instead of a used R1MX for pennies on the dollar... it's the SAME MX picture,

Somewhere there's a guy who's bought a RED ONE MX BT and all the accessories and is making a hit movie, my hat's off to that guy. He's a Genius. You've got better equipment than that guy!

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

Surely, people understand that the best case scenario for Scarlet users will be:

(New price of Epic Dragon)-(Current Scarlet price)=Trade in path

And the new price for Epic Dragon can reasonably be assumed to be more than current "cheap" Epics.

The only good way around this, as I see it, is that a camera from RED should produce money for you, not dig holes in your private account balance.

If you're the type that buys a RED and end up paying for the loans forever, or you simply end up that amount short.... well then "your dreams are writing checks your ability can't cash".

 

[Troy Bakewell]

Here's my take / opinion.

I love my Scarlet. Love it! Yeah it is a total gateway drug to Epic and someday I hope to own an Epic. But the biggest advantage of Epic over Scarlet is frame rates and the ability to over crank like a mo-fo. For my uses I don't need that so Scarlet was the obvious choice.

When the Dragon upgrade to Scarlet died I was both super bummed and excited at the same time. The fact that we get an upgrade path to a Dragon Epic is un-freaking-believable! But I'm certain that most Scarlet owners are in the same boat as I am in that we are worried we won't be able to afford it now. We have an upgrade path to Dragon which is awesome but it will be more expensive now because it leads to an Epic. And for many of us Scarlet owners, we either don't need or can't afford the one feature that really puts Epic in a whole other league (over cranking) and thus we are in an uncomfortable place right now waiting on the announcement of the upgrade details. Why? Because we aren't sure if we will be able to afford it now.

It will be extremely interesting to learn what it will ultimately cost. I hope it's under $15k and I hope we have an almost unlimited window for the upgrade, otherwise many of us Scarlet owners will be out of luck. And that kinda sucks because we just don't know right now. I can tell you this, if the upgrade path is $20k or more I will be bummed big time and will wish I had gone BT RED One over Scarlet and I bet almost every Scarlet owner will agree. No? So let's cross our fingers and hope.

Bottom line, it's a very uncomfortable feeling right now while we wait.

 

[Glen Powell]

I just can't worry about what's around the corner camera tech wise (and over the hill, and across the river in the case of RED)… I have shoots booked, I have a steady rotation of clients and more work that I can accept. I have to worry about the work I'm doing - by following that mantra and doing the best I can for my clients I'll have whatever it takes to move to the next camera platform; whenever it arrives.
That's if I even need to - sometimes it's best to keep on with what you've got until the bugs are worked out.

I mean today I almost got through an entire studio shoot day without the REDMote locking up...

 

[Terry VerHaar]

[snip]

It will be extremely interesting to learn what it will ultimately cost. I hope it's under $15k and I hope we have an almost unlimited window for the upgrade, otherwise many of us Scarlet owners will be out of luck. And that kinda sucks because we just don't know right now. I can tell you this, if the upgrade path is $20k or more I will be bummed big time and will wish I had gone BT RED One over Scarlet and I bet almost every Scarlet owner will agree. No?

No. I've worked with both RED ONE and my own Scarlet and under no circumstances would I prefer to own R1 over Scarlet.

 

[Glen Powell]

Here's my take / opinion.

I love my Scarlet. Love it! Yeah it is a total gateway drug to Epic and someday I hope to own an Epic. But the biggest advantage of Epic over Scarlet is frame rates and the ability to over crank like a mo-fo. For my uses I don't need that so Scarlet was the obvious choice.

When the Dragon upgrade to Scarlet died I was both super bummed and excited at the same time. The fact that we get an upgrade path to a Dragon Epic is un-freaking-believable! But I'm certain that most Scarlet owners are in the same boat as I am in that we are worried we won't be able to afford it now. We have an upgrade path to Dragon which is awesome but it will be more expensive now because it leads to an Epic. And for many of us Scarlet owners, we either don't need or can't afford the one feature that really puts Epic in a whole other league (over cranking) and thus we are in an uncomfortable place right now waiting on the announcement of the upgrade details. Why? Because we aren't sure if we will be able to afford it now.

It will be extremely interesting to learn what it will ultimately cost. I hope it's under $15k and I hope we have an almost unlimited window for the upgrade, otherwise many of us Scarlet owners will be out of luck. And that kinda sucks because we just don't know right now. I can tell you this, if the upgrade path is $20k or more I will be bummed big time and will wish I had gone BT RED One over Scarlet and I bet almost every Scarlet owner will agree. No? So let's cross our fingers and hope.

Bottom line, it's a very uncomfortable feeling right now while we wait.

No. I've worked with both RED ONE and my own Scarlet and under no circumstances would I prefer to own R1 over Scarlet.

Yeah Terry I'd have to agree with you - With the R1 you end up with almost no accessories that you can transfer to an EPIC or any future iteration of the DSMC system. You would be at a complete dead end; at least with Scarlet your accessory purchases are relatively safe.

 

[Bob Gundu]

If you dont have work lined up with the current Scarlet, its not going to magically appear with a dragon sensor.

 

[Peter Majtan]

Offer people a hand - and they will rip your arm out...

For the record - I have purchased my Scarlet the minute it went online back in 2011...
Yes - the Scarlet was touted as upgradable to Dragon - but do not forget the following:

A. The obsolescence obsolete of DSMC program was based on the ability to buy a new brain and keep everything else...
B. RED offering to just swap the sensor in the Epic brains is simply beyond extraordinary (as extraordinary is already what they have been doing till now...)
C. When the $6K upgrade for Epic was announced - Scarlet was ALWAYS labeled as TBD - no price was ever set for the upgrade. Ever...
D. Jim did mention very clearly that Scarlet would require much more then just a sensor swap - and they need time to figure out what exactly that would be (hence the TBD)...
E. Soon they have realized that even the $6K for the Epic was not enough and broke the news to Epic owners - they still have to figure out the exact cost...

F. "Everything in life changes... including our camera specs and delivery dates..."

The above are facts. Now here is my take and a opinion...

1. Jim has always stated that for Scarlet the upgrade will entitle swapping the ECBs as well as the sensor - so basically you would have to get all the guts from an Epic to make it work. One of the differences between Epic and Scarlet is the body of the camera. The extra grooving on the sides is not there for showing off - it provides extra cooling required by the Epic HW. So what I think has happened is that after they figured out what has to be replaced internally they ended up facing a cooling issue that could only be resolved by Epic-type body. So not only the innards would have to be swapped - but also the "skin" - which would effectively turn the Scarlet into Epic. At this point I think it became logical just to offer the trade-in program...

2. I agree that the wast majority of Scarlet owners will have a hard time upgrading directly to a Dragon Epic, as logic would dictate that anyone with funds available for this would have opted for Epic in the first place instead of going for the Scarlet. Or, if You already have a Scarlet - to just buy the newly discounted MX Epic for $19K. This is also why I have advocated on number of occasions for RED to also offer an trade-in to MX Epic (non-Dragon) - which should be far more realistic for most of the Scarlet owners...

3. Regardless of everything else I have just said - we all need to realize that RED does not OWE us anything. The original concept of us being able to buy a new brain (be it an Epic-MX or Epic-D) is and will always be there. We should be grateful to RED for even considering a trade-in program...

CONCLUSION:

Imagine for a moment that there was no other RED camera aside of Scarlet.
- 4K motion, 5K time-lapse and stills with S35 sensor and native 800-ISO (remember that 500-ISO in film was considered high-speed and grain was very much expected!!!)
- Practically any lens mount your heart desires including "smart" versions of the most popular ones (Canon and Nikon)
- RAW acquisition and FREE REDCINE-X PRO software with post workflows on all major platforms
- modular, lightweight and yet extremely sturdy design
- all of that in a body that cost less then $10K!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- tons of amazing accessories to build "your own camera"
- ready-to-shoot digital cinema system starting from $15K!

If no RED cameras ever existed and we were offered the above - everyone would be jumping up to the ceiling and had a grin all over their faces...
Scarlet IS and ALWAYS WILL BE an amazing camera and will continue to shoot amazing quality images for many years to come...

Let us wait for what the folks at RED come up with - they will tell us when they are ready...

I, for one, know I will not be disappointed - no matter what the outcome. I base this on my experience with RED till date - they have always thought about the customer first...

:sifone: Peter

 

[Philipe Ratton]

I, for one, know I will not be disappointed - no matter what the outcome. I base this on my experience with RED till date - they have always thought about the customer first...

:sifone: Peter

+ 1

 

[Nick Gardner]

With the R1 you end up with almost no accessories that you can transfer to an EPIC or any future iteration of the DSMC system.

Things that have worked with my SR, my Varicam, My red one and my epic -

Follow focus
Matte box
arri dove tail plates
Tripod and head
Batteries
zoom control
Many on board monitors and video transmitters and remote follow focus units
All of my 15mm rods in all of their sizes and dog bone brackets and widgets
15mm hand grips from the SR days

The only thing I needed to buy for the red one was a bracket for rods and a base plate. I bought different rod brackets and a couple plates for the epic and everything else works.

If you buy the right stuff it will translate.

Nick

 

[Brian Merlen]

If you dont have work lined up with the current Scarlet, its not going to magically appear with a dragon sensor.

a lot of people tell me that...but at the very least the stuff i do on spec could move really really really slow lmfao! i mean who wouldn't want to see that!

 

[Timur Civan]

Offer people a hand - and they will rip your arm out...

For the record - I have purchased my Scarlet the minute it went online back in 2011...
Yes - the Scarlet was touted as upgradable to Dragon - but do not forget the following:

A. The obsolescence obsolete of DSMC program was based on the ability to buy a new brain and keep everything else...
B. RED offering to just swap the sensor in the Epic brains is simply beyond extraordinary (as extraordinary is already what they have been doing till now...)
C. When the $6K upgrade for Epic was announced - Scarlet was ALWAYS labeled as TBD - no price was ever set for the upgrade. Ever...
D. Jim did mention very clearly that Scarlet would require much more then just a sensor swap - and they need time to figure out what exactly that would be (hence the TBD)...
E. Soon they have realized that even the $6K for the Epic was not enough and broke the news to Epic owners - they still have to figure out the exact cost...

F. "Everything in life changes... including our camera specs and delivery dates..."

The above are facts. Now here is my take and a opinion...

1. Jim has always stated that for Scarlet the upgrade will entitle swapping the ECBs as well as the sensor - so basically you would have to get all the guts from an Epic to make it work. One of the differences between Epic and Scarlet is the body of the camera. The extra grooving on the sides is not there for showing off - it provides extra cooling required by the Epic HW. So what I think has happened is that after they figured out what has to be replaced internally they ended up facing a cooling issue that could only be resolved by Epic-type body. So not only the innards would have to be swapped - but also the "skin" - which would effectively turn the Scarlet into Epic. At this point I think it became logical just to offer the trade-in program...

2. I agree that the wast majority of Scarlet owners will have a hard time upgrading directly to a Dragon Epic, as logic would dictate that anyone with funds available for this would have opted for Epic in the first place instead of going for the Scarlet. Or, if You already have a Scarlet - to just buy the newly discounted MX Epic for $19K. This is also why I have advocated on number of occasions for RED to also offer an trade-in to MX Epic (non-Dragon) - which should be far more realistic for most of the Scarlet owners...

3. Regardless of everything else I have just said - we all need to realize that RED does not OWE us anything. The original concept of us being able to buy a new brain (be it an Epic-MX or Epic-D) is and will always be there. We should be grateful to RED for even considering a trade-in program...

CONCLUSION:

Imagine for a moment that there was no other RED camera aside of Scarlet.
- 4K motion, 5K time-lapse and stills with S35 sensor and native 800-ISO (remember that 500-ISO in film was considered high-speed and grain was very much expected!!!)
- Practically any lens mount your heart desires including "smart" versions of the most popular ones (Canon and Nikon)
- RAW acquisition and FREE REDCINE-X PRO software with post workflows on all major platforms
- modular, lightweight and yet extremely sturdy design
- all of that in a body that cost less then $10K!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- tons of amazing accessories to build "your own camera"
- ready-to-shoot digital cinema system starting from $15K!

If no RED cameras ever existed and we were offered the above - everyone would be jumping up to the ceiling and had a grin all over their faces...
Scarlet IS and ALWAYS WILL BE an amazing camera and will continue to shoot amazing quality images for many years to come...

Let us wait for what the folks at RED come up with - they will tell us when they are ready...

I, for one, know I will not be disappointed - no matter what the outcome. I base this on my experience with RED till date - they have always thought about the customer first...

:sifone: Peter

Peter,

I COMPLETELY agree with you on this.

 

[Lliam Worthington]

Offer people a hand - and they will rip your arm out...

For the record - I have purchased my Scarlet the minute it went online back in 2011...
Yes - the Scarlet was touted as upgradable to Dragon - but do not forget the following:

A. The obsolescence obsolete of DSMC program was based on the ability to buy a new brain and keep everything else...
B. RED offering to just swap the sensor in the Epic brains is simply beyond extraordinary (as extraordinary is already what they have been doing till now...)
C. When the $6K upgrade for Epic was announced - Scarlet was ALWAYS labeled as TBD - no price was ever set for the upgrade. Ever...
D. Jim did mention very clearly that Scarlet would require much more then just a sensor swap - and they need time to figure out what exactly that would be (hence the TBD)...
E. Soon they have realized that even the $6K for the Epic was not enough and broke the news to Epic owners - they still have to figure out the exact cost...

F. "Everything in life changes... including our camera specs and delivery dates..."

The above are facts. Now here is my take and a opinion...

1. Jim has always stated that for Scarlet the upgrade will entitle swapping the ECBs as well as the sensor - so basically you would have to get all the guts from an Epic to make it work. One of the differences between Epic and Scarlet is the body of the camera. The extra grooving on the sides is not there for showing off - it provides extra cooling required by the Epic HW. So what I think has happened is that after they figured out what has to be replaced internally they ended up facing a cooling issue that could only be resolved by Epic-type body. So not only the innards would have to be swapped - but also the "skin" - which would effectively turn the Scarlet into Epic. At this point I think it became logical just to offer the trade-in program...

2. I agree that the wast majority of Scarlet owners will have a hard time upgrading directly to a Dragon Epic, as logic would dictate that anyone with funds available for this would have opted for Epic in the first place instead of going for the Scarlet. Or, if You already have a Scarlet - to just buy the newly discounted MX Epic for $19K. This is also why I have advocated on number of occasions for RED to also offer an trade-in to MX Epic (non-Dragon) - which should be far more realistic for most of the Scarlet owners...

3. Regardless of everything else I have just said - we all need to realize that RED does not OWE us anything. The original concept of us being able to buy a new brain (be it an Epic-MX or Epic-D) is and will always be there. We should be grateful to RED for even considering a trade-in program...

CONCLUSION:

Imagine for a moment that there was no other RED camera aside of Scarlet.
- 4K motion, 5K time-lapse and stills with S35 sensor and native 800-ISO (remember that 500-ISO in film was considered high-speed and grain was very much expected!!!)
- Practically any lens mount your heart desires including "smart" versions of the most popular ones (Canon and Nikon)
- RAW acquisition and FREE REDCINE-X PRO software with post workflows on all major platforms
- modular, lightweight and yet extremely sturdy design
- all of that in a body that cost less then $10K!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- tons of amazing accessories to build "your own camera"
- ready-to-shoot digital cinema system starting from $15K!

If no RED cameras ever existed and we were offered the above - everyone would be jumping up to the ceiling and had a grin all over their faces...
Scarlet IS and ALWAYS WILL BE an amazing camera and will continue to shoot amazing quality images for many years to come...

Let us wait for what the folks at RED come up with - they will tell us when they are ready...

I, for one, know I will not be disappointed - no matter what the outcome. I base this on my experience with RED till date - they have always thought about the customer first...

:sifone: Peter

Brilliant classy post Peter. Exactly how I feel. Proves there's better ways than to attack or niggle and still make all the most valid points. Thanks mate.

Best

Lliam

 

[Daniel Pearson]

CONCLUSION:

Imagine for a moment that there was no other RED camera aside of Scarlet.
- 4K motion, 5K time-lapse and stills with S35 sensor and native 800-ISO (remember that 500-ISO in film was considered high-speed and grain was very much expected!!!)
- Practically any lens mount your heart desires including "smart" versions of the most popular ones (Canon and Nikon)
- RAW acquisition and FREE REDCINE-X PRO software with post workflows on all major platforms
- modular, lightweight and yet extremely sturdy design
- all of that in a body that cost less then $10K!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- tons of amazing accessories to build "your own camera"
- ready-to-shoot digital cinema system starting from $15K!

If no RED cameras ever existed and we were offered the above - everyone would be jumping up to the ceiling and had a grin all over their faces...
Scarlet IS and ALWAYS WILL BE an amazing camera and will continue to shoot amazing quality images for many years to come...

Let us wait for what the folks at RED come up with - they will tell us when they are ready...

I, for one, know I will not be disappointed - no matter what the outcome. I base this on my experience with RED till date - they have always thought about the customer first...

:sifone: Peter

Totally agree on this point.

 

[Frazier Nivens]

Offer people a hand - and they will rip your arm out...

For the record - I have purchased my Scarlet the minute it went online back in 2011...
Yes - the Scarlet was touted as upgradable to Dragon - but do not forget the following:

A. The obsolescence obsolete of DSMC program was based on the ability to buy a new brain and keep everything else...
B. RED offering to just swap the sensor in the Epic brains is simply beyond extraordinary (as extraordinary is already what they have been doing till now...)
C. When the $6K upgrade for Epic was announced - Scarlet was ALWAYS labeled as TBD - no price was ever set for the upgrade. Ever...
D. Jim did mention very clearly that Scarlet would require much more then just a sensor swap - and they need time to figure out what exactly that would be (hence the TBD)...
E. Soon they have realized that even the $6K for the Epic was not enough and broke the news to Epic owners - they still have to figure out the exact cost...

F. "Everything in life changes... including our camera specs and delivery dates..."

The above are facts. Now here is my take and a opinion...

1. Jim has always stated that for Scarlet the upgrade will entitle swapping the ECBs as well as the sensor - so basically you would have to get all the guts from an Epic to make it work. One of the differences between Epic and Scarlet is the body of the camera. The extra grooving on the sides is not there for showing off - it provides extra cooling required by the Epic HW. So what I think has happened is that after they figured out what has to be replaced internally they ended up facing a cooling issue that could only be resolved by Epic-type body. So not only the innards would have to be swapped - but also the "skin" - which would effectively turn the Scarlet into Epic. At this point I think it became logical just to offer the trade-in program...

2. I agree that the wast majority of Scarlet owners will have a hard time upgrading directly to a Dragon Epic, as logic would dictate that anyone with funds available for this would have opted for Epic in the first place instead of going for the Scarlet. Or, if You already have a Scarlet - to just buy the newly discounted MX Epic for $19K. This is also why I have advocated on number of occasions for RED to also offer an trade-in to MX Epic (non-Dragon) - which should be far more realistic for most of the Scarlet owners...

3. Regardless of everything else I have just said - we all need to realize that RED does not OWE us anything. The original concept of us being able to buy a new brain (be it an Epic-MX or Epic-D) is and will always be there. We should be grateful to RED for even considering a trade-in program...

CONCLUSION:

Imagine for a moment that there was no other RED camera aside of Scarlet.
- 4K motion, 5K time-lapse and stills with S35 sensor and native 800-ISO (remember that 500-ISO in film was considered high-speed and grain was very much expected!!!)
- Practically any lens mount your heart desires including "smart" versions of the most popular ones (Canon and Nikon)
- RAW acquisition and FREE REDCINE-X PRO software with post workflows on all major platforms
- modular, lightweight and yet extremely sturdy design
- all of that in a body that cost less then $10K!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- tons of amazing accessories to build "your own camera"
- ready-to-shoot digital cinema system starting from $15K!

If no RED cameras ever existed and we were offered the above - everyone would be jumping up to the ceiling and had a grin all over their faces...
Scarlet IS and ALWAYS WILL BE an amazing camera and will continue to shoot amazing quality images for many years to come...

Let us wait for what the folks at RED come up with - they will tell us when they are ready...

I, for one, know I will not be disappointed - no matter what the outcome. I base this on my experience with RED till date - they have always thought about the customer first...

:sifone: Peter

Very well said, totally agree, getting upset over someone offering you the deal of a lifetime to upgrade Scarlet to EPIC Dragon. Be grateful..name one other company that you've ever bought a camera from that did what RED is doing for you, to the original poster, don't be mad, be glad and very thankful. Crazy deal they are giving you and never forget they don't have to offer a trade in.