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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Ultra Primes and Dragon?

Paul,

The longer focal lengths will probably cover but the wider lenses will have trouble. We tested the 24mm Ultraprime wide open and it was struggling to cover 5K Epic. At its designed coverage at 4K on Epic it was excellent but image area outside 4K quickly went mushy. Stopping down on the lens does sort out most of the mush
 
I have used all of the ultras on an EPIC... and without mattboxes , donuts , etc. 18 and 24 still had coverage.
I suspect that 6k will be fine also, but with soft vignetting start to happen... you will be at the limit.
What you can do (and is what I will do) is with the lenses that are going to be problematic... I'm just going to keep at 5k... even 4k.
I'll be happy with the Dragons new latitude, as resolution is already way good enough.
 
You have to remember that the Dragon sensor will have a smaller 5k as well. My 16mm Ultra Prime does vignette in the corners on 5kff, but I suspect that it will not on the new 5kff. I may know a place where you can get a set.....
 
Hard to say exactly because nobody has Dragon in their hands. The basic thing to keep in mind is that very likely all S35 designed glass will cover Dragon 5K. Certainly Dragon 5K HD.

6K Dragon is another thing all together. Based on the recent Salt III tests and what I've observed about UPs I think you'll have vignetted and or coverage issues when you are getting to the wide end of things. 18mm and wider probably.

The absolute best thing you can do is get in contact with somebody like Matthew Duclos at Duclos Lenses and either ask him what he knows will cover or bring your glass in for projection so you can see what will and won't cover larger than S35.
 
I had Arri send me this graphic:

phfx_redDragon_anticipatedCoverage.jpg



Most the Arri/Zeiss cinema lenses are built for 31.5 image circle, I think most other manufacturers as well. According to this graphic it looks like even 6K HD on the Dragon is well outside of that. Arri's CP.2's and a couple of their LWZ.2's cover the 24x36mm format with an image circle of 43mm but I'm not considering any of those.

Not sure how Red are planning to utilize 6K in the real world.
 
Paul Harb said:
Phil,

If you ever do another test and need Ultras I would donate mine.
Click to expand...

Thanks Paul. I might take you up on that next month or maybe just after NAB.


Paul J Steinberg said:
I had Arri send me this graphic:
Click to expand...

Arri sent you my graphic? Cool. Hi Arri.

When we tossed the Master Primes up on the projector over at Duclos Lenses we noticed that some lenses around 25, 35, 50mm and longer potentially would cover 6K Dragon. UPs might exhibit the same behavior, but I haven't had a change to play with them. For those focused on UHD broadcast I think many will be very happy that most lenses cover up to 6K HD just fine, which is just a bit larger than S35 4-perf.

Are they designed to cover larger than S35? No. And optically speaking they most likely won't be stellar in the bleeding corners.

I believe Red is testing out glass coverage right this very second though.

How Red is planning on utilizing 6K? The real question is how are shooters planning on using 6K? In my mind many ways. First certain cinema lenses cover that format. Additionally FF35 lenses cover that format. New lenses are on the way as well. For standard productions, and I've preached this elsewhere on Reduser, I feel that many projects will shoot in 5K Full on Dragon; which is a near perfect match to S35 3-Perf. I believe this because I've spoken to about 3 handfuls of working DP's and showed them the exact graphic above. I think shooting 5K Dragon with look around enabled is going to be popular for nature and narrative work as well.

Basically what I'm saying is that those who are invested and desire the look of the S35 glass on a digital sensor can sleep well as Dragon 5K is essentially a "digital S35 format", which is perfect for creating a 4K delivery. It's better to view Dragon as more of a "swiss army knife" of a sensor. Meaning, many formats, one sensor. Realistically and looking into the future of working within UHD-ville 6K, 5K, and 4K will likely be the most popular formats to shoot with. I'll probably be shooting the most at 5K and 6K 2:1 (love the 2:1 format) on Dragon when it lands. 4K and perhaps 3K when I overcrank. Much like my mindset with Epic Mysterium-X today.


Here's the other graphic and notes that go with the above image:

Phil Holland said:
Red Dragon and Film Formats


Above is a quick look at how the Red Dragon sensor compares to standard motion picture film formats. Notable observations to take from this are:
- Dragon's 6K is noticeably wider than S35, but nearly exactly as tall as S35 Academy. Useful for anamorphic shooters.
- Dragon's 5K is a smidge wider than S35 Full Aperture and a smidge shorter as S35 3-perf. Likely providing enough room for all S35 designed lenses.
- Dragon's 4K is just a bit thinner than S35 Academy.
- Dragon's 3K is noticeably wider than S16, and just a bit taller.
Click to expand...


I'm sitting on other information until it's officially announced. Mostly because I don't want to spread misinformation in case anything changes. I personally see a reason to have a 5.5K-ish resolution in there, 6K HD is kind of that though, so maybe not. Maybe a 5.5K WS format perhaps.

When I publish those other graphics they'll live here:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?92999-Red-Dragon-Info-and-Data-Sheets
 
Phil Holland said:
How Red is planning on utilizing 6K? The real question is how are shooters planning on using 6K? In my mind many ways. First certain cinema lenses cover that format. Additionally FF35 lenses cover that format. New lenses are on the way as well. For standard productions, and I've preached this elsewhere on Reduser, I feel that many projects will shoot in 5K Full on Dragon; which is a near perfect match to S35 3-Perf. I believe this because I've spoken to about 3 handfuls of working DP's and showed them the exact graphic above. I think shooting 5K Dragon with look around enabled is going to be popular for nature and narrative work as well.
Click to expand...

Bingo! That is exactly how I've been thinking of working as well. 5K with look around (hopefully is doesn't jitter when overcranking with look around like my Epic is doing now).
 
Jim has mentioned that there will be 5.5K mode which will be the same as the current M-X 5K.
 
Filip Orlandic said:
Jim has mentioned that there will be 5.5K mode which will be the same as the current M-X 5K.
Click to expand...

Most excellent. That pretty much means S35 lens coverage on that format and it's sub-formats.
 
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