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The Gentleman's Underwater Bubble Blower Thread

Johnny Friday said:
Anybody---Rudi? know of a Beamsplitter for DSLR to shoot Timelpase underwater ? I had thought we might be able to do this with Epics, but seems that we cannot shoot TL with Epics when sync'd.....
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Johnny:

What focal lengths are you looking to use?

As you may know I have developed a topside beamsplitter rig (got put on the back burner for a while during the sale of my home and move to a new facility but I'm back in production now.)

One of my projects is an underwater beamsplitter rig - with the first iteration to be for macro type shooting - where the small interaxial provided by a beamsplitter is critical. With longer focal lengths like 50 to 100mm macro the mirror and rig can be fairly small so more reasonable to house and also would not have the issues of wide angle lenses with flat ports. Use of DSLRs would make it even more practical - I would suggest taking a look at Panasonic GH2 or GH3 since they are extremely small and we also have sync controller devices for those - not really necessary for time lapse but it would allow use of the cameras for regular video with proper synchronization. When using the hack for much higher bit rate recording they are the best bang for the buck in video/cine cameras.

Even these cheap dSLRs (like the GH or Canon t4i give very high quality 16 megapixel images so should be great for time lapse. Higher res cameras like the 39 megapixel nikon d800 would give true IMAX quality.
 
Michael,
we're shooting wide angle stuff....as WIDE as possible, but we have epics using ang. 16-42 zoom lenses shooting in 5k full frame to get as much height as we can out of the sensor...that all said, shooting video is not an opiton for us.....that we are doing now with the atom and gates rig underwater....we're trying to see if we can set this rig to TL mode....i've yet to get to red about this...but all indications seem to be no...we cannot do that. so, next up is using canon full frame cameras in beam splitter underwater rig. I know there are plenty of beam splitter rigs for this, but looking for anyone that might have a housing built for one....
Johnny
 
Pawel Achtel said:
Budget allowing, I'm happy to shoot it for you, Johnny :)
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I think Bob Cranston will likely shoot this, but we first need a system that can actually achieve such goals....i think cameramen are not an issue as much as a system capable of doing what we require.
 
Johnny Friday said:
I think Bob Cranston will likely shoot this, but we first need a system that can actually achieve such goals....i think cameramen are not an issue as much as a system capable of doing what we require.
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How diplomatic Johnny hehehehe!!!
 
Johnny Friday said:
...I think cameramen are not an issue as much as a system capable of doing what we require.
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I think you are wrong, but happy to recommend you a housing that is up to the task. LOL

BTW, say hello to Bob from me and let him know that I'm happy to help :beer:
 
Pawel Achtel said:
I think you are wrong, but happy to recommend you a housing that is up to the task. LOL

BTW, say hello to Bob from me and let him know that I'm happy to help :beer:
Click to expand...

Housing is not the issue here either, but getting TL out of epic was originally. Please do share if you are on to something if you are. I'd be very pleased to learn more about TL capabilities on epic syncd. I would expect you of all people will likely know this. But from what i hear, it is not possible to sync epics in TL mode. so next is to mount dslrs inside of the housing we are using. But I would be very grateful to hear what you have to say on the subject pawel.
 
On Monday. In a gentelman's thread we need to give John Ellerbrock and others a fair go :thumbsup:
 
Johnny Friday said:
Michael,
we're shooting wide angle stuff....as WIDE as possible, but we have epics using ang. 16-42 zoom lenses shooting in 5k full frame to get as much height as we can out of the sensor...that all said, shooting video is not an opiton for us.....that we are doing now with the atom and gates rig underwater....we're trying to see if we can set this rig to TL mode....i've yet to get to red about this...but all indications seem to be no...we cannot do that. so, next up is using canon full frame cameras in beam splitter underwater rig. I know there are plenty of beam splitter rigs for this, but looking for anyone that might have a housing built for one....
Johnny
Click to expand...

Well first of all, one major point is that using 2 $22K Epics to shoot time lapse is kind of like using your Ferrari to haul 2x4s from Home Depot. Even the GH3 has 15% more pixels than full sensor Epic:

GH3 (~$1300x2): 4,608 x 3,456 = 15,925,248 pixels 15% more pixels than full sensor Epic (bonus extremely high bit rate recording video mode: 1080/60p 50Mbps IPB and 24p 72Mbps ALL-I )

Epic: (~$26,000x2) 5120 x 2700 = 13,824,000 pixels


Nikon D3200 (~$600x2) : 6,016 x 4,000 = 24,064,000 pixels - ( 75% more pixels than full sensor Epic) and almost as compact as GH3 and rated in the top 10 of ALL cameras in the DXOmark overall sensor score.

http://nikonrumors.com/2012/06/06/nikon-d3200-dxomark-score-second-best-aps-c-camera-ever.aspx/

Of the 9 cameras ahead of it 4 are Nikon full frame sensors, 3 are Phase one Medium format, and two are Pentax cameras that scored 1 point higher (one Medium format and one APS-C).


I wasn't suggesting video for your project - just that it was a bonus. We developed a sensor sync box for the GH2 and 3s.. To my knowledge none of the Canon or Nikon's or any other dSLRs have had any method of sensor syncing developed that could be practically used in an underwater housing. Since we already had microprocessor in it, a very nice timelapse function was added as a bonus feature to the more important sensor syncing. My point was that in your case the time lapse function would be the most important - with the ability to shoot sensor synced 3D video as the added bonus.


There is nothing to stop us from making it so it accommodates wide angle - it just means a bigger beamsplitter so also a bigger housing.

My other point was that macro is where a beamsplitter is really critical to get the extremely small interaxial necessary. And since macro is shot with longer focal lengths through flat ports anyway, you don't have the optical drawbacks that you have with wide angles and flat ports. You could probably get by with a 7 or 8" wide beamsplitter and therefore a much, much more compact housing.

There is a trade off point in wide angle underwater 3D where it may make sense to go to something like Pawel's side by side Nikonos setup. It may have been perceived that I was just knocking his system - and I will probably argue until my dying day that using a Nikonos 15 on an APS-H sensor gives up too much angle of view for an all purpose U/W setup ;_) - but 3D is a different matter because you can't get any wider with a beamsplitter setup, so the only issue is the fairly large interaxial with side by side, but that will still work well with a lot of shots. ( I haven't followed progress on the wet-mirror version but I suspect we will get an update on Monday.

As far as all purpose underwater beamspllitter rigs, i.e. that can go from macro to wide angle, there also may be a sweet spot. I fully understand that for feature work and certain other situations the capabilities of the Atom beamsplitter rig where you have fully developed hardware/software for rapidly manipulating IA, convergence, etc. is essential. But there are a lot of situations in documentary and nature work where you could do fine with much simpler control. And in that case it probably makes more sense to have the housing be the beamsplitter rig rather than stuffing a topside rig into a housing. You are still talking many thousands of dollars to build such a beamspltter housing but nowhere near what a deep atom costs. Using dSLRs just keeps the size and complexity down a little more since you don't have all of the extra power and monitoring setup that you have with epics. For time lapse, as said before, you actually can easily get better resolution, but obviously you only get 1080P for video.
 
Michael:
Yes, your point is well taken...i get it about TL and Epic vs. say a canon or nikon dslr rig....i'm merely getting at we have the epics housed already...and for as much work and training we have put in to understand and shoot in 3d...we get the Atom rig and Gates housing....we're well vested financially and educationally in both and feel confident about our abilities...So to get into another rig with no underwater housing is just a whole new realm of work, time, knowldege as well as financial investment. So being able to shoot Epics in the current U/W housing we have would have been a no brainer for us. Hence looking for something already built and being used and tested.

I'm not sure what Pawel is referring to with his recommending something on Monday....but, i'll let that dog lie....and if Pawel feels like sharing how he sync's epics for TL, then all the more joy. I'm sure Pawel has a plethora of knowledge on this, but real world solutions that work today are what we need.
That said, Bob and I met with Mr. JP Dielespinois of Evergreen films who had some very solid ideas about how to do this as well as just changing out the cameras for Nikon 800s or Canon Mk3's....JP was going to look into sync on them....

For now, this is merely conversation until we have funding, but very worth while conversation.
thanks for the response Michael
 
Johnny,

I don't have any suggestions in particular. I saw a guy using dual nikon D300s I think it was a while ago, where he had managed to hack the bodies and trigger the cameras in sync. All I remember is he said that once he figured how to access the camera clocks, syncing them was actually easy. He had built a box where he had the cameras mounted side by side, with Nexus ports and mounts, one camera up one down, and a trigger at the back of the contraption firing both. He was using Nikon 12-24 lenses at 13 mm I think with +4 diopters. He showed me some compressed video of some of the TL he had already made and it looked fantastic, definitely in sync, and as Mike said, the increased resolution of even those old cameras way better than Epic's best. Even though it was side by side, most of it looked really good since he kept the rig about 4-5 ft from all subjects....anyway, probably not of any help to you...

I understand you and BC are vested in the Gates/Epic combo, and I'm sure it is a magnificent beast, all the better since you guys must know it close to inside out by now, and it cannot be overemphasized how important it is to work with gear the operator knows well. That, underwater, is in my opinion the most important asset. But that combo is surely monstrous and if you can't use the Epic, then the idea of syncing a couple of DSLRs is not all that bad, but in their own housings, not the Gates animal. Anyway, good luck brother, hopefully RED can figure out a solution to your problem, I can't believe they haven't done so yet with how much Epic is being pushed for 3D productions.
 
Michael Hastings said:
... but 3D is a different matter because you can't get any wider with a beamsplitter setup, so the only issue is the fairly large interaxial with side by side, but that will still work well with a lot of shots. ( I haven't followed progress on the wet-mirror version but I suspect we will get an update on Monday.
Click to expand...

It is not an issue, the wet beam splitter is for mounting two DeepX housings in order to achieve small IA. It is complementary to 3Deep. It's for shooting macro and closeups without compromising wide angle capability and, more importantly, without degrading optical quaility by placing perfectly good lenses behind a port hole.

It can do pretty much the same as Deep Atom except that it can achieve 10 times sharper images, it can shoot wider, if so desired, and it weighs 30 kg (~66 lbs) together with two DeepX, cameras, batteries, monitor and ready to dive.

Johnny Friday said:
...I'm sure Pawel has a plethora of knowledge on this, but real world solutions that work today are what we need...
Click to expand...
I don't understand why you would imply that we do not provide real world solutions. Do you want me to help you or do you want me to refer you to get support from your housing manufacturer?
 
So I shot the Canon 1Dc in the new Nauticam housing for a week in Palau. There are issues with the 8 bit codec and White Balance so my quest for a UW 4K cam continues.

What is the best camera for underwater work and why? I own an Epic and the 1Dc so don't feel your going to cost RED a sale here by being blunt. I'm just trying understand why everyone is not shooting RED underwater. I hear the Canon 5D is da shit underwater. Really??

As it applies to Epic:
1. What are the challenges in application or results?
2. Do you use a red correcting filter? If so brand plz
3. What's the best workflow and color grading tips?
4. Is heat inside the housing a problem?
5. Is Black Shading a problem?
6. Lens choice - I shot with the newer Canon 16-35 and the 8-15 with good results on the 1Dc
7. Can a Arri 8R be used underwater?

And anything else you can add to help me on my way to figuring out how to make underwater pretty pretty

Cheers!
 
1. What are the challenges in application or results?
none

2. Do you use a red correcting filter? If so brand plz
Yes, our own formulation

3. What's the best workflow and color grading tips?
No colour correction at all, just apply S curve.

4. Is heat inside the housing a problem?
No

5. Is Black Shading a problem?
No

6. Lens choice - I shot with the newer Canon 16-35 and the 8-15 with good results on the 1Dc
Nikonos 15mm, Nikonos 20mm, Nikonos 28mm, Nikonos 35mm, Nikonos 80mm, Sea&Sea 12mm, Nikonos RS 13mm, Nikonos RS 20-35mm zoom, Nikonos RS 28mm, Nikonos RS 50mm plus many other options including a dome port, if so desired (eg for split shots)

7. Can a Arri 8R be used underwater?
No


Josh Beadle said:
And anything else you can add to help me on my way to figuring out how to make underwater pretty pretty

Cheers!
Click to expand...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?94476-Double-Dragon&p=1151035&viewfull=1#post1151035

and

http://achtel.com/DeepX/images.htm
 
HI Josh

We have all gone through the same process you are going through pertaining 4K acquisition underwater.
The answers will all be similar with variations regarding what housing to use to put your Red Epic/ Scarlet in
and of course what lenses to use- much of this dictated by what you intend to shoot.

I use Scarlet in an Amphibico Rouge Housing and here are my direct observations on your questions.
Feel free to contact me of forum should you wish to elaborate in detail on any one of these.
Best- Mauricio Handler mauricio@handlerphoto.com and dp@aquaterrafilms.com

As it applies to Epic (and or Scarlet)

1. What are the challenges in application or results?

If you are used to grading underwater Raw Stills you are already a step ahead of the game.
Red's proprietary R3D processing tool- RedCine is quite adequate for initial grading - further tools specific to your needs can be applied afterwards.
It is though pretty straight forward once you get your workflow in order.
Focusing of an Epic/ Scarlet underwater is much more critical then with other cameras but again it is all a matter of practice.


2. Do you use a red correcting filter? If so brand plz

I personally do not. Although for some circumstances this may change. Others on this forum vary in their opinion
as in everything else in cinematography technique and artistry.

3. What's the best workflow and color grading tips?
I have little experience in taking my footage all the way to TV or Cinema.
Grading will be specific to your footage's destination and final use- Others on this forum with much
more experience than I can weigh in on this question.


4. Is heat inside the housing a problem?
I use the Amphibico Rough Housing with absolutely no issues with heat. I am confident this will be the
answer from all other housings currently underwater- Heat issues were resolved early on.

5. Is Black Shading a problem?

Not at all. But you should Black shade prior to acquisition of footage especially in extreme temperature changes.

6. Lens choice - I shot with the newer Canon 16-35 and the 8-15 with good results on the 1Dc

I am a Nikon user but same applies to Canon- Most here will agree that the Tokina 10-17 continues to be one of the best options
for the widest possible coverage underwater- it is a sharp lens as well. Your Canon 16-35 should also perform well.
Amphibico Rouge Housings have various extension rings (as other manufacturers) that allow you to use well established lenses as well as experiment
with new optics- Mounts for underwater lens use mirror those on your Epic on land (Nikon, Canon and PL and whatever comes next)

I use the Tokina 10-17 with a 9.25" glass dome as well as the Nikon 17-35, Nikon 60 and Nikon 105... most of these have specific uses in a production.


7. Can a Arri 8R be used underwater?

I have read, heard and rumored mixed responses to this question- It would be beautiful of we could. Yes again, might not be even practical - for now. Others here can weight in on this response as I recall
discussing this same question last year.

The reason to take an Epic and or Scarlet for me is simple and not based on any one of the criteria you have stated in your list.
I simple want to acquire the highest possible footage for the type of work I do (Natural History). These moments (unlike a movie set) are almost always impossible to duplicate hence
My choice and investment in taking Red underwater. Another important reason is that I hope that the longevity of my housing is Maximized by using a system
that continues to support upgrades allowing the life of my cameras and more importantly - my underwater housing investment, to live on much longer than if I were to use
another lower quality system.

Once you make your decision to move forward you will see that you have indeed made the right decision.

Hope this helps.

Mauricoi Handler www.Aquaterrafilms and Amphibico Rouge Sales and Support
 
As always Pawel, you provide new horizons to the definition of 'terse', your replies have a finality about them that brook little or no response. :smile5: I am a big fan of Tchaikovsky, his rapt attention to musical detail, the necessary minutiae of his genius; are you related by chance?

Mauricio, my Rouge is prepped for Bimini and hammerheads, will be there for the next week or so, let's compare notes afterwards. May the Gods smile on me (Oh Brother, Where Art Thou), and send me the really big ones.

Josh, as has been mentioned, your deliverables should determine lens choice, frame rates, etc etc. For output to full cinematic display, I think Pawel has a viable solution, although there are limitations there. A brief perusal of the last twenty pages or so of the UBB threads should give you a good idea what those are. Anything else, an enormous range of options are available.

In any case, always learn new stuff.

Did you know, for example, that in the human body there is a nerve that connects the eyeball to the anus?

It's called the Anal Optic nerve, and it's responsible for giving people a shitty outlook on life. If you don't believe it, pull a hair from your arse and see if it doesn't bring a tear to your eyes.

My public service done for the day! :cheers2:

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I know the producers of 'The Last Coral Reef 3D' would be mortified by someone bagging their film on a particular website to score points regarding a certain 3D system. I think this shows extremely bad judgment and really bad form.
 
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Ross,
I can't see any relevance of your post with anything discussed above other than distinction between an honest opinion and insincere flattery.

Why would anyone want to call something white when it is clearly black?
Why would anyone want to say a film has a good story when it doesn't have one at all?
Why would you call shaky, poorly framed, fuzzy, randomly edited, noisy, out of focus and eye-straining stereoscopic images beautiful?
Why would you feed anyone bullshit with a big spoon and pretend that it tastes like honey?

Johnny posted a problem to which he received plenty of friendly yet completely useless replies from his "supporters".

Despite knowing the solution to his problem I decided to wait and see how much of that "honey" flows by before anyone offers something useful.

BTW, I have emailed Bob the solution on Saturday. Hope it helps.
 
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