finishing / colouring workflow / format question

[chris morgan]

i've been digging around on forums across the 'net trying to get a little insight on this question, but haven't quite figured out a solution.

as i work more and more with my scarlet on various projects, i find that i still don't have a consistent workflow for finalising and grading. this is largely because i end up doing some level of VFX during the process, as well as mildly to strongly denoising most shots using neat video.

i have neat video for AE, so usually send my PPro project to AE using the dynamic link, and denoise my shots (in addition to doing any VFX work). keep in mind that i've done my basic exposure and WB adjustments inside RCX / PPro, and i'm working with the files in RedLogFilm.

my question is... what's the best way to preserve the most latitude from this point going in to resolve? i assume a dpx sequence will do the trick, but perhaps that's overkill for the secondary / final grade...

i'm presently doing an export using the apple animation codec, and will see how that holds up.

i'm guessing the short answer is to upgrade to the full version of resolve (which will be happening in the coming months) and do denoising in there, or perhaps to denoise post-grade, but again as i've got resolve lite i'd then be working with 1080p files, and i also operate under the belief that power window tracking and grading generally works better on denoised footage.

any insight from more powery-wowery users would be great!

cheers,
chris

 

[paulherrin]

it's gonna be faster to work with sequences (or proxies). dpx or tif or exr - whatever you like, just make sure it's at least 10-bit.

 

[Juan Melara]

Best way to preserve latitude / quality would be to stay in RedLog Film, nail your white balance / exposure and make sure you're doing a full debayer.

DPX into resolve is a good option. Prores 4444 is good too and bit lighter in file size. I'd stay away from Quicktime Animation though. Even though it's lossless, it's only an 8bit codec - not what you want to bring into a grading app.

My workflow is to edit native R3D in Premiere. Any clips that need work in After Effects are exported as Prores 4444 at the final delivery resolution or larger and they stay as Prores 4444 into Resolve.

I rarely do any denoising on footage so I can't help you there. I'd run a test on pre and post colour grading denoise on the same footage with the same grade and see what looks best.

From memory the Resolve denoiser is ok especially considering it's realtime, but you may get better results in Neat Video.

 

[chris morgan]

thanks guys!

juan - good tip on the animation codec - wasn't aware of that. have stopped my export and am now going with PR4444 (which was my initial inclination.)

i'm beginning to get the idea that the full version of resolve would address a lot of these issues - typing out that post actually helped me see the bigger picture.

as far as the denoising goes, i'll probably outgrow it, but i like the 'look' it gives my pictures at the moment - i'll probably look back in 6 months and wonder what the hell i was thinking.

i suppose it all comes down to more intelligent project planning, too. i think i might try grading my footage before doing the VFX work next time... just keep trying different workflows till one sticks!

cheers!

chris

 

[paulherrin]

well... do what you do, but be careful in the 'look' department. experimenting is good, so just don't get stuck doing one thing. unless that one thing is your magnum opus. in which case it's time to pass on the torch or start another one.

'cause it looks good/cool' isn't an altogether bad reason to do something, but 'because it feels like the story' is better.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Chris, do some in depth comparisons between Neat Video and Resolve NR. Both can be effective but both require some experience to get the best results. Definitely recommend advanced mode with Neat Video.

 

[chris morgan]

thanks again guys! all good points..

although, paul... while i agree that story should drive the look, i should mention that this particular project is a 'gangnam style' mock video for a corporate event. so if i don't have the look to play with... what have i got?

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Hi Chris,

RedLogFilm preserves the most information from RAW 16 Bit to RGB 10Bit because it compresses the larger 16Bit information of the sensor with an even curve into a 10 Bit space or 12 Bit for that matter, when ProRes 444 it used. RedLogFilm's curve does not favour/compress any part of the picture, on the contrary to RedGamma3 with exactly does this to make it look "right" for the human eye on a Rec709 monitor.

However, often it makes a loft of sense to use RedGamm3 if your project will get an "right" Rec709 look with compressed blacks and mids anyway. RedGamma3 leaves plenty of room for further grading.

De-noising. Like all digital cameras Red's cameras tend to produce a fair amount of noise if underexposed. Red's proposed 800 ASA is IMHO the upper limit for pictures one would call noise free. You get much cleaner results with 400/250 ASA, especially under over-casted sky, lowlight environments and, of course, tungsten lighting. High-contrats scenes such a city park in sunny conditions turn out better with 800 ASA. Anything higher is an experiment with yourself: how many noise can I bear? De-noising Red footage can be easily avoided and costs a lot of time in post production.

Sharpening. Red has a strong OLPF implemented. Wether this is good or bad is a philosophical discussion. A stronger OLPF prevents the picture from aliasing a less stronger OLPF makes the picture look sharper. Red is surely on the soft side in comparison to the competition. Sharpness in post adds a lot of brilliance and perceived vibrancy to the finished film. Here, the goals is to make the sharpness look right and to avoid cheap "video" sharpness.

You are mentioning "final grading". In terms of latitude and room for exact, un-compromised colour timing it makes a lot if sense to grade off the best available source with the most available information. This is not the case if one is grading off a "pre-grade" to create a "final-grade". There should be only one grading session with one render pass that leads to the final grade. Anything else is repairing previous work and will not lead to the best possible result.

With an Adobe suite and Resolve this is the pipeline I would use:

Editing in PP off the R3Ds. Consolidating the project. Import all used R3Ds in RedCine and export them as ProResHQ (fulfils the needs of 98% of the projects shot with Red cameras), or ProRes 4444, or when Green Screen is involved DPX10Bit. Which gamma-curve you choose in RedCine depends on the later look of your film and the time you want to spent. Grading of RedLogFilm takes longer to grade and needs a layout grading for client approval done in the NLE.

In PP re-comform the project to ProRes or DPX. Do all VFX in AE or wherever. Show the result to the client with a layout-grade performed in PP (only necessary when RedLogFilm is used).

Conform the project in Resolve. Do your grading.

Round-trip back to PP, add titles, export deliverables. Done.

I use Smoke since a few years for finishing, meanwhile editing, and do all in one box which gives considerable faster turn-around times. Smoke 2013 will be significantely cheaper than the earlier versions and might be interesting for you.

Hans

 

[Nick Shaw]

If you want to start from the look of REDgamma3, but preserve the amount of information in REDlogFilm for grading, may I suggest you try my REDlogFilm to REDgamma3 LUT for Resolve. Set this as the output LUT for Resolve, and you will be grading in log, but seeing REDgamma3. This way the highlight and shadow compression of REDgamma3 happens after your grading changes.

 

[Johnny Friday]

If you want to start from the look of REDgamma3, but preserve the amount of information in REDlogFilm for grading, may I suggest you try my REDlogFilm to REDgamma3 LUT for Resolve. Set this as the output LUT for Resolve, and you will be grading in log, but seeing REDgamma3. This way the highlight and shadow compression of REDgamma3 happens after your grading changes.

Nick: BRING ON the FCPX plugins PLEASE!!! I'd be very interested in this and a plugin that may work better underwater---a specialty perhaps? What about PrPro & AE ?
Thanks Nick! please contact me directly by email: johnnyfriday(at)me.com

 

[Carlos Reyes]

Im confused as to why not export an XML to Resolve and export from Resolve your final grade?