RED Dragon vs. 65mm film...

[Zach Swena]

If Dragon killed HDRx, then that could be due to a several factors.

1. There is no longer need for it - doubtful since they have stated 16 stops of DR, vs 18 for MX with HDRx
2. Increased data rates are not worth it at 6k, possible

or

3. They have moved to global shutter, which makes HDRx impossible. At the beginning they did not expect to need to make a new ASIC for Dragon, however after the Sony announcement, during the price reduction posts they revealed that Dragon now requires a new ASIC.

Hmm...

Just speculation though, don't get your hopes up. Would it be possible to have an option of rolling or global shutter as a menu option? Would that be desirable?

 

[Pablo Moreno]

What would HDRx do with Dragon? Or how many stops more for DR with Dragon and HDRx together?Wait Dragon without HDRx can do 18 plus stops of DR?

The fact is that digital cameras (any of them), it doesn't matter, they don't blend nicely from darks to highlights, even an Epic with Dragon, is inherent on any digital sensor, so even if you have 20 stops you'll probably still need HDRX, but I could be wrong, so I'll accept any corrections from the experts in this...



EDIT: Unless of course, Dragon does, "pipelining", ( exposure during red out ), like this one..

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

Awesome stuff. With the sensor possibly being bigger, just wondering if lenses will have trouble covering it.

I also bet the upgrade path for Scarlet is the Epic-MX. Sounds like too much needs to happen to the Scarlet for the upgrade.

Exactly, that's my bet regarding the "upgrade" path...which would actually amount to more of a "trade-in" program. But who knows. That's speculation.

And it seems there shouldn't be any issue with most lenses covering Dragon...I recall Jim writing that.

 

[Pablo Moreno]

The Chief said: "The Dragon has more resolution than 65mm film when scanned at 4K".

A little confusing. If you scan at 4K, then, obviously that's your final resolution, 4K right?, you can't go beyond that. But, what is the actual resolution of 65mm film, without been scanned (or projected straight from film?), and after that, how can that be compared to Dragon??

 

[Max Nguyen]

The Chief said: "The Dragon has more resolution than 65mm film when scanned at 4K".

A little confusing. If you scan at 4K, then, obviously that's your final resolution, 4K right?, you can't go beyond that. But, what is the actual resolution of 65mm film, without been scanned (or projected straight from film?), and after that, how can that be compared to Dragon??

That confused me a bit, too. I am not privy to the goings on at Red Studios, but I assume they are testing the heck out of things. My mental exercise assumes that they take footage off of the Dragon and project it at 4k on a 40 foot screen and then take 65mm footage scanned at 4k (Because there are no 4k+ scanners? Correct if I'm wrong) and project it on the same screen as well. They compare, laugh maniacally and then kick us in the nuts by building up our eager anticipation with a hint of the results. Well played Red Team, well played.

 

[Pablo Moreno]

That confused me a bit, too. I am not privy to the goings on at Red Studios, but I assume they are testing the heck out of things. My mental exercise assumes that they take footage off of the Dragon and project it at 4k on a 40 foot screen and then take 65mm footage scanned at 4k (Because there are no 4k+ scanners? Correct if I'm wrong) and project it on the same screen as well. They compare, laugh maniacally and then kick us in the nuts by building up our eager anticipation with a hint of the results. Well played Red Team, well played.

You have a point.. What I believe, after rethink the whole thing for a while, is that, (visually speaking), Jim states that Dragon projected at 4k, looks way sharper than 65mm film scanned and projected at the same resolution. This way makes a lot of sense.

EDIT; of course, I know is hard to visually judge the resolution of film because the grain..

 

[IAN SUN]

NO!!! We still need simultaneous frames with different shutter speeds for all kinds of applications! Sharp stills with smooth motion...sharp frames for motion tracking etc. I have been desperately looking forward to what we will be able to do with Dragon's 3 extra stops and the faster shutter speed on the X frame!

Here Here, HDRx is awesome, + 1 for pulling stills is a keeper, even if it is only available at sub 6K.
Congrats RED Team.

 

[Max Nguyen]

of course, I know is hard to visually judge the resolution of film because the grain..

Too true. However, I doubt they would try to use an 800 ASA film stock to do the testing. Once more, the mental exercise. They use fine grain stock like 50 ASA and then shoot the Dragon in the same circumstance. These guys are engineers as well as artists, we must not forget. There is a lot of science to it and I doubt they would shoot fast, high grain stock film as the controlled comparison.

 

[Pablo Moreno]

Too true. However, I doubt they would try to use an 800 ASA film stock to do the testing. Once more, the mental exercise. They use fine grain stock like 50 ASA and then shoot the Dragon in the same circumstance. These guys are engineers as well as artists, we must not forget. There is a lot of science to it and I doubt they would shoot fast, high grain stock film as the controlled comparison.

I respect that..

 

[Casey Green]

NO!!! We still need simultaneous frames with different shutter speeds for all kinds of applications! Sharp stills with smooth motion...sharp frames for motion tracking etc. I have been desperately looking forward to what we will be able to do with Dragon's 3 extra stops and the faster shutter speed on the X frame!

+1 on this. I'm looking forward to still having the option for several of the applications Justin listed.

 

[Jannard]

This is easy stuff to understand. Film does NOT like high ISO. It blocks in the shadows. And grain inhibits resolution as compared to digital.

Digital has, in the past, been down on dynamic range when compared to film. As of the Dragon... that is no longer the case.

To recap... the Dragon has more dynamic range, less noise, no blocking and high ISO capability. And it is an upgrade!

Digital is finally better than film in every way. The Dragon. Not available at a store near you.

Jim

 

[Sean Cruser]

thank you sir for laying down the gauntlet.

 

[Pablo Moreno]

Pablo, I think you are discounting the differences in human nature. It's true that every human brain has a right, but not always is that "right" the same as the person in the seat next to them. Let me give you an example. Your Avatar is very colorful and eye-catching... yet I cannot look at it but for a millisecond because then it becomes garish (to my eyes... no offense intended). But my own Avatar is very pleasing to me while to you it very likely is rather bland. What I'm saying is there is no perfect standard (thank goodness because then some govt. body would try to impose that on everything visual).


I used to take photos of people I encountered, whether behind the counter of a deli to the sacker who loaded my groceries, to the waitress who brought me coffee. I retouched each of their photos before printing them to make the individual look moure aesthetically pleasing. Not one complained that it didn't look like their real self. Many thought I was a great photographer because I made them look better. And that often involved changing their skin tones somewhat.

I understand what you are saying, but in normal situations, there are always standards. Your avatar looks more pleasant to me than mine, I agree, why?, because it is already genetically imprinted in our brains as something pleasant, a little cute animal.. and no matter how hard I try to explain to you, that my avatar is a computer model of the Fibonacci sequence spiral , found everywhere in nature, even in far galaxies, and is beautiful, you are not going to like it a bit more, so I agree. Now, 100.000 people right now will agree with me that this $600 camera, it has the best movie-looking-life-like-skin-tones ever, even when we all know, that is a low end DSLR, is not a cinema camera, doesn't have a full frame sensor, or high dynamic range and high frame rates, and most important, is not even a 2K sensor camera. that's why I am saying, There are always standards. I love the bleach bypass effect on movies, but I know that even when I am looking at pallid green faces, it originally came from something natural, that was already there, and there is no way to fool the brain with something diferrent. There are some standards, is all I can say..

EDIT: Maybe not 100.000 but close..

 

[Andrew Julian]

No. Not unless something totally amazing and unexpected happens.


In the past, RED announced several models of EPIC and Scarlet brains with various sizes of sensors ranging from Super35 as we have now on up to 645 and even 6x17cm Panoramic. The two big guys, the 645 and 617 models would have definite uses. Both could easily serve as full IMAX replacements to start with. The use of the 617 model for commercial purposes, digital signage, interactive spaces, etc... I still salivate over the possibilities of these two cameras. Who knows when or if they will become reality.

I wonder if a format similar to the Hasselblad X pan has ever been considered for a future digital camera. A 24x65mm Dragon sensor would be amazing! And totally out of my budget.

It would give the guys in the market for the 617 something to shoot with while they wait/dream.

 

[Jannard]

I have no idea what you just said. I guess I'd ask if you understood everything I said.

Jim

I understand what you are saying, but in normal situations, there are always standards. Your avatar looks more pleasant to me than mine, I agree, why?, because it is already genetically imprinted in our brains as something pleasant, a little cute animal.. and no matter how hard I try to explain to you, that my avatar is a computer model of the Fibonacci sequence spiral , found everywhere in nature, even in far galaxies, and is beautiful, you are not going to like it a bit more, so I agree. Now, 100.000 people right now will agree with me that this $600 camera, it has the best movie-looking-life-like-skin-tones ever, even when we all know, that is a low end DSLR, is not a cinema camera, doesn't have a full frame sensor, or high dynamic range and high frame rates, and most important, is not even a 2K sensor camera. that's why I am saying, There are always standards. I love the bleach bypass effect on movies, but I know that even when I am looking at pallid green faces, it originally came from something natural, that was already there, and there is no way to fool the brain with something diferrent. There are some standards, is all I can say..

EDIT: Maybe not 100.000 but close..

 

[Adam Johnson]

Best. Quote. Ever!

The Dragon. Not available at a store near you.

Jim

 

[Adam Johnson]

hahahaha

Jim - plain and simple there is a certain faction of people in this world that will NEVER be happy with anything digital....to them film is like some sort of unattainable holy grail....afterall "it has some sort of magical warmth about it that just can't be described, but you know film when you see it." Total BS. I am in the camp that believes digital has already surpassed film. In my mind, everything from here on out such as Dragon (which will be the best in the land!) will continue to revolutionize the medium and push technology forward.

oh yeah...and then there are spiral galaxies or whatever he said

I have no idea what you just said. I guess I'd ask if you understood everything I said.

Jim

 

[Pawel Achtel]

Is there going to be Dragon Monochrome?

 

[Emmett Stang]

Ace!

Congrats RED team, you guys keep kicking arse and taking care of your own. As if shooting on Epic wasn't fun enough!

 

[Joseph Coleman]

I agree that there will always be a group that doesn't think digital is as good as film. Personally, I love digital and I love digital even more when its shot Anamorphic. I really hope that Red is still developing a FF 35 sensor (dragon tech) to better accommodate 2x anamorphic lens. I think if red could develop a set of anamorphic lens's to go along with that FF35 sensor they would make a killing. I know they are extremely hard to develop and cost a lot of money. But if anyone can do it Red can. I can't wait to see what red's doing behind the scenes with their lenses. I know something is cooking back there.