Everything changes... IMPORTANT post.

[Rob Ruffo]

The timing of the reduction must be more than in part due to the imminent Sony announcement. Whether RED reduce their price or not, rental rates will have to be reduced if a cheaper Sony camera hits the market that comes close to the Epic in quality. You can't seriously expect Red not to respond to competitors in order to protect your investment when your camera's value will be hurt by external companies whether RED do anything or not.

You should just be glad for the opportunity to upgrade to Dragon so your camera can continue to bring in rentals. Imagine if you were any other companies customer at the time of a new announcement? No freebies against accessories for purchases that took place in the last month, no upgrade path, and instant huge devaluation.

You are probably going to be out of pocket but it could be so much worse.

When push comes to shove, you and your clients have a camera that was used on Prometheus and Hobbit - and it is only going to get better.

In many ways a Red One MX exceeds an Alexa now. Yet an Alexa costs way more, is rented frequently for way more. Perception is reality. I would have loved to see Epic stand its ground as the premium deluxe high-end camera. That is really what it is. Selling it too cheap will not help this (technically accurate) perception.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Well no. Many can afford to get $0 ROI on MacBook. It's low enough to have a wide personal-use only market. You can contineu to use it long after it is out fo date - no client si going to care how recent your laptop is, unless it si too slow for DIT tasks or something. Not a 30K + camera. Few people would buy this just for personal fun. I know I could not.

Tell that to the company that buys hundreds of computers each year. No - you can't really afford a zero ROI on your tech investments. Like I said, it's all just zeros from there.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

In many ways a Red One MX exceeds an Alexa now. Yet an Alexa costs way more, is rented frequently for way more. Perception is reality. I would have loved to see Epic stand its ground as the premium deluxe high-end camera. That is really what it is. Selling it too cheap will not help this (technically accurate) perception.

I think you are right (regarding Alexa priced higher in the rental market).... but knowing the nature of RED you have to plan accordingly.... RED is not trying to be that type of price gouging company. If you want an elite brand... get an Alexa Studio. For the same reasons you mentioned I'm planning to get a Alexa 4K when it comes out... while also having a few EPICs. Each camera has its merits.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

For your information, David Mullen was one of the few if not the only one who publicly defended my honour in such boards. So, please don't hide the dirty game of the usual suspects with REAL moviemakers and decent people. For some reason, he is a reference for all of us. And we don't see him to feed personal agendas.

The point is that I've dedicated all my life to movies. Did you already sleep in a car because of them? I did. And all my partners, I guess, too. How many on cinematography.com forums can say the same? Unless to attack who they simply don't know... even insinuating lack of background. What it is untrue. Only for the record, I attended one of the most elitist filmschools of old Europe where I could finish two graduations in filmmaking (yes, on celluloid-based), nevertheless, I was attacked there as an indigent, along Jim, even Jarred in his own first post ever IIRC. I don't remember to have seen your name there. But speaking of another name already mentioned tonight here, Tom Lowe was the only name seen in this thread, beyond mine (and of course, Jim/Jarred), to fight for RED acceptance there.

No I never slept in a car. I got pro gigs when I was still in high school, and paid my way through University mostly with gigs - no family contacts, just b__lls and what my grandmother calls Moxy. Yes I have worked hard, had music video clients put guns in my face, etc. etc. usual show business stories.

So what? What if I hadn't? Does that make me less noble? Are only poor people noble and "good"? How much does one have to suffer before being acceptable to you? I know filmmakers who have suffered a lot - and who suck, others who are great, same for those who have not suffered much at all. Who cares?

I don't post on Cinematographer.com (I probably should, if only to defend Red) but I do frequently read it.

I agree that the opinion there of Red is unfairly negative and FUD-filled, but there are many other defenders, not just those you mention. But some of these guys are titans I otherwise have tremendous respect for. Instead of demonizing them, I think we should examine how they came about these false beliefs, and try to change them.

Dirty game? Usual suspects? I have no idea what you are talking about. I really don't. There's no game here, just brutal honesty from me.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Tell that to the company that buys hundreds of computers each year. No - you can't really afford a zero ROI on your tech investments. Like I said, it's all just zeros from there.

they are tools though, if they are computers in an office ro something. They are not renting them out as a line-item. It's just not the same business model as pro cine gear. When I go to my lawyer he doesn't tell me how fast his servers are - nor do I care.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I think comprehensive package deals that offer significant savings (buying it as package as opposed to individual items) would be a good strategy because I see quite often on here people are not prepared for some of the necessary accessories. Look at the countless threads about media prices. For those very familiar with digital cinema cameras, there is the understanding that you will need a lot of stuff to go along with it such as extra batteries, beefy tripods, lenses, etc. But someone jumping up from an HVX200 may or may not be prepared for the extra costs. You really do need experience to know what is needed and what isn't needed for the kind of shooting you intend to do. For example, showing up on a job with 2 batteries and a 64GB SSD might not get the job done.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Rob - you are obviously not going to be persuaded here. I get that. But you made certain assumptions when you "invested" in your Epic that turned out to be somewhat off base. We all do that - we make "mistakes." But that isn't RED's fault. They are doing what is right for their business and, IMO, for the greatest number of clients and potential clients in the marketplace. Just like one sometimes gets "lucky" when your assumptions about the future pan out better than expected, it can also go the other way. Whatever bets you make, you have to be ready to accept the consequences. It isn't that I (or probably most others here) don't have sympathy for your plight, a lot of us just don't feel like blaming RED is a reasonable response.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

For all the Cry Babies out there ... If the price reduction is that big a deal for you then you either couldn't really afford one in the first place or you are not working enough to justify owning one. Every other company on the planet reduce prices without warning.

Really - so people who got theirs 3 months ago, they should have amortized it by now. Or how about people who bought it for a project, which now got delayed or cancelled. Or people who rent it out enough to pay it off safely in a year and a half or so? Not manly man enough for you? They don't deserve their Epics like you. We should all be so perfectly always booked as you, you imminently powerful manly man. Everyone else should just shut up and takle it like the manly man that you are (who BTW, I see from you signature, doesn't own an Epic).

BTW - not true that all companies price drop without warning in big ways (again, maybe drop will be small and reasonable - we'll see) Some do, some don't.

 

[Adam Beck]

I think comprehensive package deals that offer significant savings (buying it as package as opposed to individual items) would be a good strategy because I see quite often on here people are not prepared for some of the necessary accessories. Look at the countless threads about media prices. For those very familiar with digital cinema cameras, there is the understanding that you will need a lot of stuff to go along with it such as extra batteries, beefy tripods, lenses, etc. But someone jumping up from an HVX200 may or may not be prepared for the extra costs. You really do need experience to know what is needed and what isn't needed for the kind of shooting you intend to do. For example, showing up on a job with 2 batteries and a 64GB SSD might not get the job done.

Steve is right on. I would of been in the same position if I hadn't taken Reducation.

 

[Eric Lange]

I have to admit I find some of this discussion a little weird.

When I/we decide to purchase something it is because we need it exactly at that point. Typically I try to hold off as long as I possibly can to purchase something.. but there comes a tipping point where YOU HAVE TO PULL THE TRIGGER… There is absolutely no choice.

I take responsibility for that.

However, the fact that these cameras systems can become cheaper and more advanced is indeed better for MY business…

I don’t lose any sleep over that and take responsibility for my actions.

Obviously stuff (usually) gets cheaper unless it’s a special “introductory” price.. that’s expected… I can’t DO anything about that other than actually do the things we need to do?). ???


Honestly what can you do?

Cheers,

Eric

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Rob - you are obviously not going to be persuaded here. I get that. But you made certain assumptions when you "invested" in your Epic that turned out to be somewhat off base. We all do that - we make "mistakes." But that isn't RED's fault. They are doing what is right for their business and, IMO, for the greatest number of clients and potential clients in the marketplace. Just like one sometimes gets "lucky" when your assumptions about the future pan out better than expected, it can also go the other way. Whatever bets you make, you have to be ready to accept the consequences. It isn't that I (or probably most others here) don't have sympathy for your plight, a lot of us just don't feel like blaming RED is a reasonable response.

It's not just my plight. It's lots of people. There are many of us here in Montreal who bought Epics this year. Other friends in other cities. When we did that, we looked at Red's past behavior. We trusted they would stay in character. We'll see, maybe they are, maybe not.

Anyway, I'm not blaming anybody for anything - or upset - yet. I am concerned, and anxious to know what will happen on the 31st. I am not accusing them of anything - I don't know what they will do yet. Maybe neither do they, yet.

Also, I'm sorry, but I can't feel bad for some student/beginner filmmaker because they "only" can afford a battle-tested Scarlet or used Red One at current prices and not an Epic. That's ludicrous. A Scarlet is a wondrous tool, as is a Red One M even. I'm supposed to be happy to have a revenue cut, because it will help them in their "plight"!? Talk about whiners! I would have killed for something as awesome as that when I was starting out.

 

[Cid J Salcido Uyarra]

for some reason I feel like there's gonna be an Epic in my hands in the near future and I'm seriously gonna have no clue how the f#@& it happened.

hopefully this is more than just a feeling.

go RED go

couple more days

 

[Ivan Kovax]

Rob is not alone at all. There are many Red users I know that don't dare express their legitimate concerns here because of people like Tom Lowe, now a moderator, and some other users alike, who like to insult and ostracize people who give opinions that differ from "awesome!".

The other reason being is Jim's motto "we reserve to refuse service to anybody with bad attitude", the definition of which is pretty murky. Many livelihoods here depend on the tools we chose to use and in which we are deeply vested in.

That's true, but at the same time Red is allowed to make business decisions for their own marketplace as they see fit... are they not? If RED doesn't stay competitive, and as a result goes the way of the Thompson Viper, the SI2K, or Pan Am due to poor business strategy, how does that benefit any of us? It is much better for them to stay competitive and piss off a few past clients, but potentially gain a swath of new clients.

Like I said earlier - there is no way that the price of an Epic could fall to the point of the original RED One, which many of us owned, so I really don't see the valid complaints - we earned money back then and we can earn money now. Sure some of us may make a little less per rental. But a smart businessman has ways of adding value and upselling to his clients.

 

[Ivan Kovax]

So people who say everyone should have access to Epics are coming form a strange place. Why should they?

Democratization is one thing, but Marxism is another.

Marxism??

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I have to admit I find some of this discussion a little weird.

When I/we decide to purchase something it is because we need it exactly at that point. Typically I try to hold off as long as I possibly can to purchase something.. but there comes a tipping point where YOU HAVE TO PULL THE TRIGGER… There is absolutely no choice.

I take responsibility for that.

However, the fact that these cameras systems can become cheaper and more advanced is indeed better for MY business…

I don’t lose any sleep over that and take responsibility for my actions.

Obviously stuff (usually) gets cheaper unless it’s a special “introductory” price.. that’s expected… I can’t DO anything about that other than actually do the things we need to do?). ???


Honestly what can you do?

Cheers,

Eric

Well then you think like an artist, not like a business. I am artistically minded as a DP, but I buy gear like a business - cause I can just rent anything I want so it's all about $$$ and making budgets work and staying afloat.

So lets say Epic will now rent for $200 a day (lets hope not, but hypothetically.) I will feel like an idiot. Shooting 4 days or so a month (we shoot highly planned short form - that's actually a lot) that's $800 a month. It will take me basically forever to recoup my money. I could have spent $0 and just rented, and done the same work, with the same camera and kept all that money. It has nothing to do with storytelling or art or anything other than simple math.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

That's true, but at the same time Red is allowed to make business decisions for their own marketplace as they see fit... are they not? If RED doesn't stay competitive, and as a result goes the way of the Thompson Viper, the SI2K, or Pan Am due to poor business strategy, how does that benefit any of us? It is much better for them to stay competitive and piss off a few past clients, but potentially gain a swath of new clients.

Like I said earlier - there is no way that the price of an Epic could fall to the point of the original RED One, which many of us owned, so I really don't see the valid complaints - we earned money back then and we can earn money now. Sure some of us may make a little less per rental. But a smart businessman has ways of adding value and upselling to his clients.

Well I hope the down-pricing will be reasonable. I really do.

Yes Red can do what they want but so can we as customers and loyal supporters. We have the choice to like it or not. I think they want to keep us on their team, even me.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I think you are right (regarding Alexa priced higher in the rental market).... but knowing the nature of RED you have to plan accordingly.... RED is not trying to be that type of price gouging company. If you want an elite brand... get an Alexa Studio. For the same reasons you mentioned I'm planning to get a Alexa 4K when it comes out... while also having a few EPICs. Each camera has its merits.

Fair enough, but I don't think Epic is overpriced now. Alexa, yes, a bit overpriced. But in terms of what? You can still make money with an Alexa.

 

[Michael Brennan]

Geez, over the years there has been enough business advice given about buying equipment, including from Jim that buying kit in a recession is relatively a high risk venture.
Its your risk, your decision, your bed.
Owning kit won't turn you into a good DP and a good DP doesnt necessarily make a good business person.
Owning kit may get you noticed. Owning state of the art latest gadget will get you in the door only whilst the kit is hard to source.
A personable and social demour, high craft skills, experience, creativity and above average intelligence are sought after.

Newcomers will be exploited as they are cheap , but it is no gaurantee the cheap jobs will lead to jobs with better budgets and conditions where you can plan to make a proper living.


Some were crowing about the democratisation of the industry that comes with lower priced kit.
Well the democracy has arrived and with it less opportunity to make a living from the indusrty because the jobs get spread more thinly. A true democracy will happen when kids from the wrong side of the tracks have an equal opportunity as those with enough cash to try and buy their way into the industry.

In this respect lets hope kit gets cheaper to give everyone a fair go.

Talent, drive and commitment will survive. In the meantime those with enough money to back their aspirations who are finding making a living too hard should exit the industry quickly rather than lower rates.

With respect, perhaps some who bought a camera hoping it would launch their DP carreer made an irrational connection to Reds marketing that like their camera, their business plan would not become obsolete.



Mike Brennan
DP
Melbourne

 

[Ivan Kovax]

Well I hope the down-pricing will be reasonable. I really do.

Yes Red can do what they want but so can we as customers and loyal supporters. We have the choice to like it or not. I think they want to keep us on their team, even me.

Exactly. That is the way a capitalist society works. It is a balancing act - and even you would admit that Red has always taken great care with their customers. And you can understand that Red has not taken this decision lightly, knowing that it would piss off some customers. They have indicated as much.

So lets all take a deep breath and wait till Red actually makes the pricing announcement. Fingers crossed, you will probably find that it is much ado about nothing.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Hi Rob,

None taken by anyone, I'm sure. My reply didn't aim specifically at you, either.
In fact, I understand your worries. They are the same worries I have when I buy a Mac Pro. Or an editing software. Or a camera. Their value goes down the minute they arrive at my door.

But - this is life.

I guess it's a matter of perspective. Think what you can do with a great camera, or with an affordable editing software. If these are simply tools for higher goals, then you'll be happy. If, on the other hand, you're just trying to make a profit out of them, you're in trouble from the start. That's the nature of this game. It's a risk - in fact, it's a reality - you have to accept, anticipate, and live with it. Did you truly expect the EPIC to hold onto its value for two years? If yes - and I say this respectfully - you were not realistic when you made the decision to buy it.

At the end of the day, better products for lower prices is what makes our life better. Generally speaking. This is why I personally welcome the price reduction.
George

--

Two no. One yes. If it goes down a little. Fine. 80%? Some crazy amount? Then they lose me as a customer as I will no longer be willing to take that risk again. With these numbers, it has to be a business thing - otherwise man, just rent. Some 4K XDCam Ex 8 bit camera camera is really not my problem. My clients won't care. They see the F3 as for corporates and "expensive weddings" (their words, not mine). This is not competition to Epic, to Scarlet maybe a little.

Anyway, we'll see I guess.

Yes. Risk. Of course. Our Red One was a GREAT investment. You do win some and loose some, but in this economy, again, losses hurt pretty bad for small players like my wife and I.