Everything changes... IMPORTANT post.

[Peter Dmitriyev]

some people forget the epic was actually originally priced $27,500 (or so) and it was only after the earthquake of japan that electronics parts and circuit boards became more expensive (earthquake destroyed electronics parts factories) and thus caused the price increase to $34,500 so in my eyes Red is just equalizing the price back down to what the Epic was meant and supposed to already have been to begin with, and if I'm not mistaken many people already had paid the original 27k price for the Epic anyway

 

[Wil Wong]

ha, ha Andy. Thanks for catching my typo. It's what you get typing at 12:50am here in Toronto.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Rob, it comes with the territory of owning technology. Like it or not, no one likes things to depreciate. Then again, shouldn't equipment get cheaper to the renter each time it get's used. After all, it's not as new as the last person that used it.

As for that 'kid' in your example, more power to them if they can now afford an Epic. Filmmaking shouldn't be a game of affordability but about the art or the tools. It still comes down to what they can do with it. They can rent an Epic and make crap. They can shoot on an iPhone and make amazing stuff. That person that can do amazing stuff on an iphone will also make amazing stuff on an Epic (pro quality).

Can you be happy that your iPad just got replaced with a new model? If you can't, then life gonna be very miserable. Things change. Tools get better, cheaper. That's life.

You talk about art and so on. I make a great living as a DP that will not change. Will I ever buy another camera? Maybe not - we'll see on the 31st. That will not affect who hires me, just my bottom line. Our Epic, for the last time, was a business investment, one I made based on trust in and assumptions about Red.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

some people forget the epic was actually originally priced $27,500 (or so) and it was only after the earthquake of japan that electronics parts and circuit boards became more expensive (earthquake destroyed electronics parts factories) and thus caused the price increase to $34,500 so in my eyes Red is just equalizing the price back down to what the Epic was meant and supposed to already have been to begin with, and if I'm not mistaken many people already had paid the original 27k price for the Epic anyway

Funny how facts and logical arguments get lost to knee jerk and emotional responses ... Well said and any Stage 2 person bitching really needs a fact check ... I paid a net of 12K for my X and frankly my M-X rentals the year before paid for my Epic in full !

Fact

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Its actually a race to the top.. unfortunately the ones that don't get that are in for a rocky ride.

Cameras are getting better for cheaper. There is no getting around that. Look around. A current $500 entry level DSLR shoots better images than a $10,000 DSLR from just 2 years ago. Take a look over at DXOmark .. From a pure technical image quality rating there are $2000 cameras stomping $60,000 digital backs.

Its just going to happen. We know China is trying to copy what we are doing.. along with a ton of other companies. And they will release something for cheap and they wont give a shit about the customer.. and the net effect stays the same.

Well no. Because firstly, that has not yet happened (and maybe we would like enough time to recoup until it does) and secondly, these cheapo Chinese or other cameras will have very slow acceptance on high end sets - where Arri or Epic are the only acceptable choices and likely will remain so.

 

[Craig Weeding]

We bought 4 Epic M's at the beginning of the year and are very happy and satisfied with them, 5K and RAW has revolutionized our work flow and our finished product.


We could not be happier that RED is bringing down the price of the Epic, We look forward to buying more, they are a fantastic tool.


Perhaps we are lucky because we bought the cameras to use in our own productions and have kept them busy and never having to hire them out for them to pay for them selves.


Technology keeps changing and getting less expensive, I am proud that RED has the integrity to pass this savings on and lower prices on their cameras.


Now it seams everyone is realizing the fact that Digital Cinema Cameras are electronic devices that follow the same economic rules as the rest of the electronics industry.


Over time you will get more for less. Does anyone really expect RED to try and buck this trend? To try and do so would be madness and a failure.


Jim and Jarred clearly understand this and are playing the game at a world class level with a world class product.


I am confident that this one of the many reasons RED will grow and move forward while other companies will struggle and some will fail.


RED is doing the best they can to protect our investment in their product by continuing to be the world leader both in both quality and competitive pricing.


With this strategy RED will be successful and both RED and their customers will win.


Bravo RED

 

[Rob Ruffo]

@Rob

I think it's safe to safe the Red rental market is gonna be somewhat dead.

It's gonna be expected of DP's to own their own gear and include it as a day rate for all the non-union folks kinda like what it's like on 5D gigs. Red seems to be leaning towards that market at this point in time. They want a Red on every set just like there where 5D on every set in 2009.

getting into the 600 with a good clique that can provide consistent work is like trying to get signed onto a record label. It's really hard, I know there's allot of older AC who are burnt from the industry so it's making wave for all the younger folk like me.

once I get that spot if I do, I will then have to decide if it's all that it's dreamt up to be? That will be for our generation to decide and results will begin to show through out this decade if it hasn't already. Only the best and passionate will hang.

Old school film makers had to go through the rigorous process of working up the industry to get their film made; in todays world almost anyone wil be able to tell their story.



Two brain surgens are about to start on an operation.

one of the surgens is a bit nervous.

the other surgen notices and responds.

"take it easy don't get so stressed out, whats a'mater with you? you think we're making a movie here?"

Well actually, it takes a lot more than a camera to tell a story. It takes actors, locations, lights, Steadicams, etc,. etc. teh camera is only one small part, and the cost of actors and locations and set food and permits and travel and..... are not affected by technology.

 

[Peter Dmitriyev]

why can't people realize that decisions like these affect some people more than others. There is no blanket black and white net result. People like Rob's business or whoever are decrying this decision might be very negatively affected, and other people I'm sure are running their business in such a way (or have a far larger business) where such a small thing won't be affecting them. Just respect your fellow man and acknowledge that this WILL absolutely hurt some people and it won't hurt many others, period. Nothing is black and white. Unfortunately nothing can be done about it, it's evolution and we must move forward so away we go and I praise Red for their bold decisions

 

[Wil Wong]

Rob, I don't think that's gonna go away. The more people that use red, owns red and hears about it, the more likely the reputation will encourage new users and more users. I used to own a Sony FS100. I loved it but it wasn't 4k. That said, it's practically outdated now. How many cameras come and go and how many models do we keep hearing or getting requested. Red's plan seems sound. I'm so glad that they didn't add model numbers into their names. People that don't know cameras ask for a Red Camera. They don't necessarily care if it's a Scarlet, One, or Epic (unless they are camera savvy) cause they've seen the images and sample and like it. That's the reputation that will build from this.

Will you see more competition in rentals? Maybe. We probably will see more demand too. That said, it might make more sense to charge less and get more business then to keep charging a premium. Unless you go with your equipment as DOP (which will probably make it worth so much more to the client), it's a camera. The market is changing. Word of mouth however is what social media is all about and a reputation and higher user base won't hurt.

 

[Emanuel A.]

You talk about art and so on. I make a great living as a DP that will not change. Will I ever buy another camera? Maybe not - we'll see on the 31st. That will not affect who hires me, just my bottom line. Our Epic, for the last time, was a business investment, one I made based on trust in and assumptions about Red.

Rob, I'm sorry to disagree but you're losing the most important part of the equation... Did you trust in and assumptions about... the market?

Because RED is not the market, the company exists because and when there is a market. A camera company to still survive needs to have the most important link of the chain in the equation... not a race to the bottom. A race to the bottom would be to forget it.

I am in a hotel in Ljubljana. Tonight, because there is a Marathon in town, I paid almost more 50% on the price of yesterday. Same room. I wouldn't have where to sleep otherwise. Only 24 hours later, I am sure I can get it for half price.

This is pure economics. No company can invent the wheel.

E

 

[Jarred Land]

Well no. Because firstly, that has not yet happened (and maybe we would like enough time to recoup until it does) and secondly, these cheapo Chinese or other cameras will have very slow acceptance on high end sets - where Arri or Epic are the only acceptable choices.

China has already announced a 4K camera for well under 10k. And the acceptable choices on high end sets have nothing to do with price.. they have to do with quality. We are not changing that..

And Rob.. let us remember as some one just pointed out that your investment to your Epic #2888 was not the current price. It was a Stage 2 upgrade.

So you paid way, way less money than anyone that bought a camera after the stages. You have benefited by getting higher rental rates since you bought your camera than you paid for.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Rob, I don't think that's gonna go away. The more people that use red, owns red and hears about it, the more likely the reputation will encourage new users and more users. I used to own a Sony FS100. I loved it but it wasn't 4k. That said, it's practically outdated now. How many cameras come and go and how many models do we keep hearing or getting requested. Red's plan seems sound. I'm so glad that they didn't add model numbers into their names. People that don't know cameras ask for a Red Camera. They don't necessarily care if it's a Scarlet, One, or Epic (unless they are camera savvy) cause they've seen the images and sample and like it. That's the reputation that will build from this.

Will you see more competition in rentals? Maybe. We probably will see more demand too. That said, it might make more sense to charge less and get more business then to keep charging a premium. Unless you go with your equipment as DOP (which will probably make it worth so much more to the client), it's a camera. The market is changing. Word of mouth however is what social media is all about and a reputation and higher user base won't hurt.

If lots of no-budget prods with untrained DPs start using Epics that will not help Epic's reputation. High end clients in ads and features know exactly what an Epic is.

 

[Wil Wong]

Peter, I think you are right that it'll hurt some. To those however, I hope those that have the right attitude will see more then just how it hurts them but perhaps a wider good to us all and the company that we have decided to support by buying their product.

 

[Zach Swena]

Scarlet???

Scarlet???

I am anxious to know what price scarlet will be after all of this... Of course some people haven't payed their cameras off yet, and won't be happy, but why should everyone else suffer with high prices just because they didn't have a business model to support their purchase? If red followed the business model some are wishing for, then you would still be paying six figures for cameras half as powerful. If RED isn't going to milk the market, then don't expect to yourself with rentals. I so wish 5k for $5k :yesnod: wouldn't have to be a wild dream for scarlet, but that doesn't seem like it would be possible with the technology you have let out of the RED room so far... I am sure the "obscene amount of profit" Jim mentioned mainly applies to Epic. Scarlet still blows my mind at it's current price. Really Red, you don't do market surveys? What were the BT Scarlets about then. :yesnod:

Whatever you do, please seriously consider a companion product for the live TV industry. Scarlet with the Meizler module would look really attractive for live TV if there was a proper shading station and dare I say 1080i support? Many might not understand the need for that much resolution in this application, but price wise it is very competitive with other shading compatible cameras on the market. Broadcasters unfortunately are still stuck with 1080i, low bandwidth deliverables, and that horrid MPEG2 compression, but why should they have to buy outdated cameras for more money then a scarlet package and be barred from being future proofed, and have the ability to do productions worthy of more sophisticated venues also? With a shading solution, and 1080i RED could have a drop in upgrade for any station that has an HD production switcher. I'm working some low cost control widget hardware and would love to help, but I'm not far along enough yet to say much more then that.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

China has already announced a 4K camera for well under 10k. And the acceptable choices on high end sets have nothing to do with price.. they have to do with quality. We are not changing that..

And Rob.. let us remember as some one just pointed out that your investment to your Epic #2888 was not the current price. It was a Stage 2 upgrade.

So you paid way, way less money than anyone that bought a camera after the stages. You have benefited by getting higher rental rates since you bought your camera than you paid for.

It was $27500 - with accessories around $38K all told (inc. media). I did not buy that camera as a stage 2. We also had a stage 2 that we shared with Van but sold our shares of that to him and got our own camera because he was too busy with it and we almost never had access.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I am anxious to know what price scarlet will be after all of this... Of course some people haven't payed their cameras off yet, and won't be happy, but why should everyone else suffer with high prices just because they didn't have a business model to support their purchase? If red followed the business model some are wishing for, then you would still be paying six figures for cameras half as powerful. If RED isn't going to milk the market, then don't expect to yourself with rentals. I so wish 5k for $5k :yesnod: wouldn't have to be a wild dream for scarlet, but that doesn't seem like it would be possible with the technology you have let out of the RED room so far... I am sure the "obscene amount of profit" Jim mentioned mainly applies to Epic. Scarlet still blows my mind at it's current price. Really Red, you don't do market surveys? What were the BT Scarlets about then. :yesnod:

Whatever you do, please seriously consider a companion product for the live TV industry. Scarlet with the Meizler module would look really attractive for live TV if there was a proper shading station and dare I say 1080i support? Many might not understand the need for that much resolution in this application, but price wise it is very competitive with other shading compatible cameras on the market. Broadcasters unfortunately are still stuck with 1080i, low bandwidth deliverables, and that horrid MPEG2 compression, but why should they have to buy outdated cameras for more money then a scarlet package and be barred from being future proofed, and have the ability to do productions worthy of more sophisticated venues also? With a shading solution, and 1080i RED could have a drop in upgrade for any station that has an HD production switcher. I'm working some low cost control widget hardware and would love to help, but I'm not far along enough yet to say much more then that.

No, I want Red to keep their strategy they have had all along. Very low prices, with steady, predictable decline that allow time for amortization to be possible - not guaranteed, but possible.

 

[Bob Gundu]

I would rather RED become a healthier company to ensure a brighter future. Have you guys forgotten why we're here? When the growth of a company begins to flatten, you need to adapt. I'm pretty sure RED looked at all the options. This market is about to get crowded. Competition always comes from the bottom and the products that are available today from RED may seem out of place with cost once the others show their cards. RED have some very cool products in the wings that will undoubtably be flagships for the company. RED is a much larger company today which means it has to keep the machine rolling. More customers today ensures a better future. Go team RED!

 

[Wil Wong]

Rob, people who aren't great DP will have their work judged not by the technology but by the content and their skills. There are too many examples of good quality work that no one can say that the camera is at fault. Yes, people can screw up the image. They will be the same asking why their picture isn't as cinematic. They will be the ones learning. Those that can't or simply don't learn to improve will always have their stuff look like crap. Like I said, enough examples out there to show that the technology isn't to blame. A cheaper camera in the hands of a kid gives them the technology. It won't harm the camera's reputation but their own if they can't make the footage look good.

 

[Peter Dmitriyev]

Rob, people have to who aren't great DP will have their work judged not by the technology but by the content and their skills. There are too many examples of good quality work that no one can say that the camera is at fault. Yes, people can screw up the image. They will be the same asking why their picture isn't as cinematic. They will be the ones learning. Those that can't or simply don't learn to improve will always have their stuff look like crap. Like I said, enough examples out there to show that the technology isn't to blame. A cheaper camera in the hands of a kid gives them the technology. It won't harm the camera's reputation but their own if they can't make the footage look good.

Well it depends at what level you function. At a certain level you're hired in large part due to what gear you can bring aboard to the production and the producers can't really differentiate your skill level from your competitors so it's all about who has the better gear. And the argument can be said that more people having an Epic means more competition at this level and thus less business. (Playing devil's advocate here)

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Rob, people who aren't great DP will have their work judged not by the technology but by the content and their skills. There are too many examples of good quality work that no one can say that the camera is at fault. Yes, people can screw up the image. They will be the same asking why their picture isn't as cinematic. They will be the ones learning. Those that can't or simply don't learn to improve will always have their stuff look like crap. Like I said, enough examples out there to show that the technology isn't to blame. A cheaper camera in the hands of a kid gives them the technology. It won't harm the camera's reputation but their own if they can't make the footage look good.

Please to all people who don't understand that your skills as a DP, and what you charge for them, are not at all related to what gear you should buy as a business investment: get this point now. The money you invest in gear has little or nothing to do with your career progression. It's either a good investment that makes money or a crappy one that does not net you profit over what it would cost to rent for your own prods and the money you make renting to others until teh camera is obsolete or loses too much value. It's just numbers, accounting, nothing to do with art at all.