Worthy competitor for the EPIC??

[Tom Lowe]

If I were Sony I'd be worried that if the F4 is too good, it could effectively kill sales of the F65. I'd wager there's likely already enough F65s in the field to support the number of shows interested in taking it on. So what do you do? Choke the bit rate on the F4 so there's decent market segmentation? That's Sony's traditional MO. Perhaps these days you just have to try and win your segment even if it cannibalizes another product in the line up.

This is the way Sony has been operating for a decade -- crippling the technology of newer, more affordable cameras, in order to protect their high-end cameras. It's a disgraceful practice, IMO. I hope they will not continue with that type of business practice.

 

[Matt Ryan]

My guess is the 50 Mb/s recording is for 1080p 10-bit 4:2:2 internally on SxS--an ALEXA ProRes killer, if you will.

I believe there will be an external recorder like a Codex or something via 3G (dual-link?) that captures in 4K.

I also think it will shoot 4K @ 120 FPS with no windowing.

The New sony camera is the F5 ($22-$25,000 range)! They are skipping the 4 model number and going to 5...They are aiming for the C300/500/Scarlet market with this.

Compression Schemes:
50 Mbps XDCam @ 422
80 Mbps XAVCHD @ 422
120 Mbps iframe compressed not XD Cam
220 Mbps "SR" @ 422 (only on new "SxS Raw+" Memory cards.... these are new!)
You can only record the full 4k frame with the R5 SR Recorder, otherwise you will record windowed footage.

120 frames per second in HD (1080), codec: XAVCHD
No on board 4K. Must use R5 recorder using a NEW type of memory card to record 4K and/or RAW.
R5 Recorder Suggested Price at the moment is $19,000! Not to mention the recording media. May change before the release.

There is also an F55 4K camera coming too, and that is what Sony is calling the direct competitor to the Epic.

 

[Justen Nguyen]

This is the way Sony has been operating for a decade -- crippling the technology of newer, more affordable cameras, in order to protect their high-end cameras. It's a disgraceful practice, IMO.

Read my mind Tom.

Great info Matt. It makes sense for sony to try and go after the Scarlet/c300 market.
The market seems to be a stir, both camera and lens wise. This will only make RED try and stay ahead of the curve that much more...

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

This is the way Sony has been operating for a decade -- crippling the technology of newer, more affordable cameras, in order to protect their high-end cameras. It's a disgraceful practice, IMO. I hope they will not continue with that type of business practice.

Doesn't everyone kind of do that if they have a higher end camera? I mean technically the Scarlet is newer than the Epic and it surely has less power than the Epic. Not that there was really any new tech in it. You can't really blame any company for wanting to protect there top of the line product, even if they can bring it to the table for cheaper. I mean heck, the Scarlets that were rolling for less than a minute had nearly a $5000 savings...tells you there has got to be some margin even with what kind of deal we already get on it.

I'm not condoning that activity, I don't like it either, but it seems like everyone kind of prevents or limits tech in some way to separate there products in varying price brackets. I mean if you think about it and the Epic-S had actually come out for 12K with 5K 48fps, or essentially half of what the Epic offered don't you think RED probably would've lost a bit in sales on the Epic M/X? I knew people that were bummed that the Scarlet was so cheap already and wished they had gotten that instead of the Epic.

From the sounds of everything I've read it sounds like Sony is finally waking up and everyone is saying "you'll be surprised" and "they listened". It's a shame they took this long but it's only better for everyone.

And please don't take this as RED operates like this, because I don't think they do. I just feel every company protects there top of the line products to some degree.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

The New sony camera is the F5 ($22-$25,000 range)! They are skipping the 4 model number and going to 5...They are aiming for the C300/500/Scarlet market with this.

Compression Schemes:
50 Mbps XDCam @ 422
80 Mbps XAVCHD @ 422
120 Mbps iframe compressed not XD Cam
220 Mbps "SR" @ 422 (only on new "SxS Raw+" Memory cards.... these are new!)
You can only record the full 4k frame with the R5 SR Recorder, otherwise you will record windowed footage.

120 frames per second in HD (1080), codec: XAVCHD
No on board 4K. Must use R5 recorder using a NEW type of memory card to record 4K and/or RAW.
R5 Recorder Suggested Price at the moment is $19,000! Not to mention the recording media. May change before the release.

There is also an F55 4K camera coming too, and that is what Sony is calling the direct competitor to the Epic. They think the Epic is way behind the F65...Seriously...

They will also be announcing a new set of lenses much better than their previous ones and at a t2.0 (set of 6 made by a famous lens company exclusively for Sony)...

That's all the info I have for now.. :shocked:

Ouch. Where did you get this info? Those prices are scary! I don't really know how a 22K camera cost with a 19K cost recorder is aiming for Scarlet....if they did the completely missed the mark.

 

[Curt Pair]

Great photoshop job! But it does NOT have a "traditional" viewfinder like this! The "ergonomic compact design" (and the over heating) was a below the belt shot at the Epic... There is no such sensor either. Someone had a BUNCH of fun with this one!

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Great photoshop job! But it does NOT have a "traditional" viewfinder like this! The "ergonomic compact design" (and the over heating) was a below the belt shot at the Epic... There is no such sensor either. Someone had a BUNCH of fun with this one!

He he, I never really get in the middle of this stuff, just so uninteresting to me and always have better to do, but when I got this on my twitter feed, I could not helped to post it here... I already have the best camera in the world for my needs, and with the Meizler and Dragon my Epic has just gotten that much better, good luck to any one else trying to catch up to it...

 

[Matt Ryan]

Ouch. Where did you get this info? Those prices are scary! I don't really know how a 22K camera cost with a 19K cost recorder is aiming for Scarlet....if they did the completely missed the mark.

From Sony in a demo...(No I didn't and wasn't asked to sign an NDA)

 

[Phil Holland]

Matt, I thought it was burst 240fps at 1080p

 

[Matt Ryan]

Matt, I thought it was burst 240fps at 1080p

hahaha

 

[Phil Holland]

In poker there's a term regarding "the nuts". Red may indeed have the nuts in this situation because while we have been told a little information regarding the upcoming Dragon sensor upgrade, they honestly haven't revealed their hand. Which is a good thing for all of us.

When it comes to several of the big companies and their upcoming cameras it's moderately predictable based on their release patterns, announced technology, and the minimalism based incremental design. Let's take Canon still cameras for instance. Everybody is waiting for their next high resolution 1 series and they have been sitting on 46 and 50 megapixel FF sensors for years. They weren't R&D'ing for the sport of it. Even a few years ago they also demo'd that 4K "hair dryer" and we now have a 4K..... erm.... thing.

Red has been the leader in 4K+ tech for a while in the cinema realm (personally hoping it remains this way), but things are slowly getting a bit more crowded in the 4K elevator which will make it a different playing field. At this point anybody who thinks 4K isn't here is blind. Next week we'll have another competitor. Over the next 6 months a lot more is going to happen.

 

[Gary Paul Walker]

From my point of view, unitl Sony et al adopt the same modular / upgradable attitude that RED have used, there's no competition. At least not for me.

 

[Vadim Bobkovsky]

Well, at least now there's more choice out there in 4K RGB and 4K+ RAW area.

 

[Sebastian Wiegärtner]

you will be all surprised! funny to read all the rumors and expectations. i was absolutely surprised yesterday. this announcement will be very tough for some big players in the industry.

 

[Rehan K]

you will be all surprised! funny to read all the rumors and expectations. i was absolutely surprised yesterday. this announcement will be very tough for some big players in the industry.

Matt Ryan above claims to be at the demo and posted real specs.

 

[Rehan K]

They won't price an upgraded camera at the F3 price point cause that would take business away from that model,p.

Business away from from F3? That doesn't even mske sense. F3 is discontinued. B&H doesn't even have it in stock anymore. No Longer Available

 

[Sebastian Wiegärtner]

Business away from from F3? That doesn't even mske sense. F3 is discontinued. B&H doesn't even have it in stock anymore. No Longer Available

B&H still has it. Just the non S-Log version is discontinued!

 

[Eric Z]

It makes sense that 50Mbps is for 1080p 4:2:2 10bit @ 24fps.
4K is four times FHD, so from that, will it offer 4K@24fps at 200Mbps?

 

[Tom Lowe]

Doesn't everyone kind of do that if they have a higher end camera? I mean technically the Scarlet is newer than the Epic and it surely has less power than the Epic. Not that there was really any new tech in it. You can't really blame any company for wanting to protect there top of the line product, even if they can bring it to the table for cheaper. I mean heck, the Scarlets that were rolling for less than a minute had nearly a $5000 savings...tells you there has got to be some margin even with what kind of deal we already get on it.

I'm not condoning that activity, I don't like it either, but it seems like everyone kind of prevents or limits tech in some way to separate there products in varying price brackets. I mean if you think about it and the Epic-S had actually come out for 12K with 5K 48fps, or essentially half of what the Epic offered don't you think RED probably would've lost a bit in sales on the Epic M/X? I knew people that were bummed that the Scarlet was so cheap already and wished they had gotten that instead of the Epic.

From the sounds of everything I've read it sounds like Sony is finally waking up and everyone is saying "you'll be surprised" and "they listened". It's a shame they took this long but it's only better for everyone.

And please don't take this as RED operates like this, because I don't think they do. I just feel every company protects there top of the line products to some degree.

When I buy a desktop CPU, do I get upset when a new CPU with nearly double the power comes out a year later??? To to the extent that Red possibly "cripples" the Scarlet (there is no evidence of that on hand), then I completely disagree with it. I think new products should be launched when they are ready -- end of story. I say, let the crybabies cry. I want the best, fastest, cheapest technology possible, the minute it's ready. Crippling new cameras to protect older, more-expensive ones is a bullshit practice, IMHO. Sony been's doing it for a long time.

 

[Brett Clements]

Must be killing them to know that they cant rip people off anymore.. having to sell cameras under for a fraction of what they use to charge...
We have to thank RED for making all other competitors bring there prices down for performance... thats for sure.
Look forward to seeing what this thing is... not that I would ever purchase another SONY product ever again.

You can say that again. And again.