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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Worthy competitor for the EPIC??

I think it will be priced around the 1DC and do about as much as the c500. Makes sense. More than anything else, Sony is trying to hammer Canon in this marketplace, moreso than Red, the Alexa or, alas its own f65.

FWIW.

Cheers,

Ivan
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
The F65 is their answer to the Epic and it makes great images, however the back end is science experiment and the data load is a serious disincentive.
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Seconded. I'm about to start my third Sony F65 3D project, and I can safely say that single cam is intense enough data-wise, and 3D is just flat out nuts. It's doable, but I feel like Doc Brown every time we go through with it. I think the F65 is great, but when you're pumping 6 terabytes into a system for a single day's shoot, you start to appreciate the Epic and REDCODE a helluva lot more. Especially when 3D's concerned.
 
The thread title states "Worthy competitor for the Epic". Sony has their Epic competitor. What to be concerned about is a worthy competitor to Scarlet. This is exactly why Dragon is so very important for both Epic and Scarlet.
 
Sebastian Wiegärtner said:
you will be surprised next week! had a meeting with sony today, but i'm under nda.
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I assume there was no NDA for the NDA?

I expect this would be to the FS700 what F3 was to the FS100.

My hope is that they have figured out a system, and precisely, a codec - preferably compressed RAW - to record 4K internally.
 
Can't say anything, sorry. But It was sometimes mindblowing today. Really. Can't wait to hear what RED says next week.
 
RAW = Raw sensor data
Compressed = removal of some of the visual information being sensed by the sensor prior to recording the data

So, yes, you can have RAW and compressed. That is what REDCode does.



Richard_JP said:
Isn't that an oxymoron? How can it be compressed and raw? That's like asking for a cooked tartar.
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Well Sebastian,
I guess you could give us a vague hint on what's to come. Right?
 
You've already spilled the beans that it needs an external recorder :nono: In any case, Sony is going to be pushing 4K. It's clear based on playstation being 4K soon. It's more a question of the finer details like frame rates, and codec that will be the most intriguing.

Sebastian Wiegärtner said:
Can't say anything, sorry. But It was sometimes mindblowing today. Really. Can't wait to hear what RED says next week.
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Chuck Z said:
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

I never thought I'd read this on REDUSER.
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Hahahaha, yeah! Wait, what? It is an oxymoron, as it's two contradicting terms.

So just to be clear. RedCode is raw, but just a little bit compressed... so it's compressed?

Sorry for the dumb question, but I'm sure you can understand where the confusion is coming in.
 
Richard_JP said:
Hahahaha, yeah! Wait, what? It is an oxymoron, as it's two contradicting terms.

So just to be clear. RedCode is raw, but just a little bit compressed... so it's compressed?

Sorry for the dumb question, but I'm sure you can understand where the confusion is coming in.
Click to expand...

Redcode is compressed RAW. Thats what the compressions ratios dictate (i.e. 3:1, 5:1, 12:1). Those ratios are the amount of compression being used in the capture of the RAW material. The higher the ratio, the more compression...
 
Matt Ryan said:
Redcode is compressed RAW. Thats what the compressions ratios dictate (i.e. 3:1, 5:1, 12:1). Those ratios are the amount of compression being used in the capture of the RAW material. The higher the ratio, the more compression...
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I'll admit now that I don't fully understand the science behind the internal working of Red cameras. But my point was, it can't really be both RAW and compressed, however it might be spun from Red. It's either compressed or raw. And in Red's case, it is, albeit very slightly, compressed. Unless I'm being illogically logical.
 
Richard_JP said:
I'll admit now that I don't fully understand the science behind the internal working of Red cameras. But my point was, it can't really be both RAW and compressed, however it might be spun from Red. It's either compressed or raw. And in Red's case, it is, albeit very slightly, compressed. Unless I'm being illogically logical.
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Okay, I'll ease off a bit now. RAW != uncompressed. RAW, in RED's terms, means the monochrome (before deBayering and interpolating color) linear sensor data. It undergoes wavelet transformations in each of the channels (my guess is the green filtered photosites are the least compressed) and quantized to a desired compression level.

Uncompressed means no data compression (lossy or lossless). You can have uncompressed or compressed RAW. The same holds true in the RGB realm. You can have compressed RGB/YUV (think any codec like MPEG-2, H.264/AVC, ProRes) and uncompressed RGB (think 10-bit 4:2:2 V210 from a capture card or other recording device or DPX file sequence).
 
Richard_JP said:
So just to be clear. RedCode is raw, but just a little bit compressed... so it's compressed?
Click to expand...

RAW has come to mean "Bayer pattern" for lack of a better term.

REDCode used to be way more than "a little bit compressed" and I would call many common options such as 10:1 more than "a little bit compressed".
 
Level of compression is a critical issue for the F4. At 50mb/s it will have a hard time making a decent 4K image, especially if its already been debayered. I think at 880mb/s in SStP it would eat the F65's lunch for everything but big features, big venue and forced ISOs. If on board recording is SXS then the max sustained write speed might be the limiting factor unless you tack on an outboard recorder. Even if you do go outboard, what is the connection type? Proprietary fiber? 4 SDI?

If I were Sony I'd be worried that if the F4 is too good, it could effectively kill sales of the F65. I'd wager there's likely already enough F65s in the field to support the number of shows interested in taking it on. So what do you do? Choke the bit rate on the F4 so there's decent market segmentation? That's Sony's traditional MO. Perhaps these days you just have to try and win your segment even if it cannibalizes another product in the line up.

The wild card is whether it can push out live 4K signal... Sports, high end IMag???

Cheers - #19
 
My guess is the 50 Mb/s recording is for 1080p 10-bit 4:2:2 internally on SxS--an ALEXA ProRes killer, if you will.

I believe there will be an external recorder like a Codex or something via 3G (dual-link?) that captures in 4K.

I also think it will shoot 4K @ 120 FPS with no windowing.
 
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