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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Meizler proxies as "final" delivery

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david_winters

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As a owner / op, half my shoot days are with producers which need to walk away with standard 1080 "video camera" files, AVC-HD, MXF, Prores... that sort of thing. At wrap they hand me a cheap USB drive, I dump the day's video footage, backup to my personal raid1, they walk away with "ready to edit" media. These jobs are industrial and DRTV ads.

Right now, I'm shooting some of these gigs on a Scarlet and Rocket to .MOV at home after wrap. Or, with my FS100, 7D, and a handful of other "prosumer' cams. I want to dump all that gear and focus on Epic/Scarlet + Meizler, if I can truly have one camera system to cover the full range of jobs.

Are proxie files of sufficient quality for this type of project? Aliasing, color, sharpness, banding, noise, on par or superior to what I'm getting from my Sony FS100? Too soon to say, as the module is not shipping?

Thanks in advance.
 
David,
if you are asking are the proxie files generated off of RAW data good enough for a final delivery or even a deliverable--hell no. They are proxies...good for editing etc....I'm continually blown away when i'm hired for a shoot and then turn over my data only to find out next question is why are the images flat and desaturated? Well, it's raw.....enough said.....and to bake that raw look into a prores file is senseless....you are better off then shooting with your other equipment.

Edit---i assume you can always setup a Look and shoot, but just sounds to painstaking to me....I'd shoot with a camera setup that is known for shooting prores well like a sony 900....yep, tape, but what beautiful prores deliverables.
 
david_winters said:
Are proxie files of sufficient quality for this type of project? Aliasing, color, sharpness, banding, noise,
Click to expand...

You would be hoping at least the files are as good as the ARRI's PRORES files for obvious reasons or what's the use of buying the thing...? other than to have a few ports for power and video feeds.. Same goes with DNxHD.
My expectations would be PRO RES 4444 or at worst 442(Hq) and DNxHD in a RED LOG FILM or LOG C look full debayer.

I'm really interested as well to know the answer... RED ?

RAW is great and the best, but for quick jobs GIVE me RED LOG FILM or LOG C PRO RES any day. (Until my laptop can play and render out 5k R3D files in real time, which could be years and years away yet)
 
Hm...

Depending on a lot of think, it better be...

If you Record redlogfilm to a 10bit 444 format, you should have one hell of a camera for many occations.

If the Meisler prores/dnx files don't hold up well against the alexas similar files, it'd be a not-so-good surprise.
 
According to this thread:

720p - 4:2:2 @ 24 & 60fps
1080p - 4:2:2 @ 24 & 60 fps
2k - 4:2:2 @ 24 & 60fps
2k 4:4:4 will become enabled early 2013.
Click to expand...

So, if 10 bit 2K full debayer will be available in 2013, maybe 1080p too? It has to be at least on Alexa level, though. Extended DR of the Dragon would also help, since you'd grade from RedLogFilm ProRes files and not R3D, where you can tweak things. EPIC-D and Meizler shall be the answer to Arri, especially if Red wants to win TV scene back.
 
1080P 4:4:4 @ 120FPS would actually be really needed. It could be possible for like speeds above 50 fps, that you can only choose between proxy recording or r3d recording for example, if that is nedeed to make this happen.

When the module comes out, let it a least compete with the alexa, otherwise people will still prefer the alexa for the prores options
 
Hahahaha

Looks like a few of us have the same practical experiences in the field! :-)

If the debayer is good, it could beat the alexa on one of its main selling points.

But I mustsay I am frankly debating the impact.
it may have come a bit to late,unless Dragonis where it's at.

I'd personallytake an Epic over an Alexa any day. But to behonest,that's just me...
 
I would love to have the options of super low ress files that are quick to move good for small laptop playback quick on set composting etc. Then if it's an "alexa image engine" in there that would be good as well but I find it hard to beliave. Especially for bigger frames, higher framerates and so on.... or?
 
Vadim Bobkovsky said:
As the history teaching us - it's never too late for total world domination :) Every once in a while... you know.
Click to expand...

And RED is doing a good job at it.
Sometimes stubbornness is good. Sometimes, not so much.
I really love 5k RAW at 3:1 compression...

But it was nice, when I first had my red one, to be able to playback realtime in fcp through the proxies.
Until build 16, that worked fine for short form.

Realtimeness of RED has in some ways gone down, due to quality improvements.

Having edit-and finnishable prores/dnx files out of the box, goes against the grain of the original idea, but will make the camera a much more widely viable option.

Red changed the game, but to some extent the outside world responded, and did it ok.
If red can cover that base and still deliver superior compresssed RAW, it's best of all worlds.

That said, if all you need is prores, pix is a cheaper solution than the Meisler...
 
Björn Benckert said:
I would love to have the options of super low ress files that are quick to move good for small laptop playback quick on set composting etc. Then if it's an "alexa image engine" in there that would be good as well but I find it hard to beliave. Especially for bigger frames, higher framerates and so on.... or?
Click to expand...

Yep that too is really important. It should have the choice between a prores proxy 1080p recording and a prores 4444 log recoding, that would be make the camera way more versatile.
 
Id be very supprised if the Proxy isn't Broadcast acceptable and 4.2.2. and probably 4.4.4 options available. Im not saying this is prefereable to raw. Im just saying why would if not be as good as other camera manufacturers can produce.
 
Toia explains exactly what I'm looking for, but I would be happy with less... If the Meizler can record a 1080 "Rec-709" HD image, which can be used as "final," then I can sell off all my "broadcast video" kit and have one scalable package for every project.

Raw workflow and 4k... I started working in 4k when R1 camera #99 shipped. Over the years, hundreds or projects, all but a few have been one-pass 1080 to ProRes/DNxHD, never to return to 3RD files.

Feature films, raw, 4k, I get it. But, 1080 "Rec 709" has got to represent the majority of owner / op shoot days. I still get calls to shoot SD 4x3 for broadcast/cable. I can argue for 4k raw, and sit at home unemployed, or get the better kit in front of my clients with the "media format" they want.
 
david_winters said:
Toia explains exactly what I'm looking for, but I would be happy with less... If the Meizler can record a 1080 "Rec-709" HD image, which can be used as "final," then I can sell off all my "broadcast video" kit and have one scalable package for every project.

Raw workflow and 4k... I started working in 4k when R1 camera #99 shipped. Over the years, hundreds or projects, all but a few have been one-pass 1080 to ProRes/DNxHD, never to return to 3RD files.

Feature films, raw, 4k, I get it. But, 1080 "Rec 709" has got to represent the majority of owner / op shoot days. I still get calls to shoot SD 4x3 for broadcast/cable. I can argue for 4k raw, and sit at home unemployed, or get the better kit in front of my clients with the "media format" they want.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I remember a post assuring us that the HDSDI was rec709 compliant and an excelent down convert. if that is so then no reason why a proxy aught be crippled in some unspecified way. A KiPro mini seems to work OK for the most part.
 
I'd be interested in exactly how many RED users are actually finishing in anything above full HD 1080p?

I've just completed a big overseas corporate shoot and shock horror, I chose not to use our Epic and instead shot on a Canon C300 and it was a complete joy to use and never faltered once. The footage I have to say is lovely and we could plug mics straight into the camera with no mixer. Recording 50 Mb/s to CF memory cards was also a pleasure - 82 minutes of BBC approved full HD footage per card and they were less than £100 each. My clients simply could not tell the difference between Epic and the C300 - food for thought!

I love our Epic but find myself longing for a more user friendly camera with better audio and more cost effective media storage.

RED, I think the time has come to accept that while 4K may be the future, full HD is what we're delivering right here right now and a module that can allow us to shoot say 50 M/bs broadcast quality HD (as Alexa does) is something that would be a godsend.

I personally wold guess that 80%+ of Epic/Scalet shooters are finishing 1080p.

Scott
 
Dave,

For the cost of meizler mod, i would look for alternatives UNLESS you "need" the FIZ capable and the wireless video and all the other dodads. But a $13K prores recorder + media to record on, can be purchased for a lot less ala Sound Devices, Black Magic or some other 3rd parties. But if you do breakdown and buy one, I'm sure there will be a rental from me in there somewhere! =)
 
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