People not getting the RED

[Max M.]

I think the points ryan made are really true. Arri set the standard and Red gave us all the options. It's a bit like Apple vs PC. Apple is a closed controlled system where they made most of the design an spec choices and you cant change alot but it does work extremly well. PC gives you all the choices possible and the right people can get more out of it, but a lot of people have alot of problems with all kind of configurations because there are unlimited options.

Import thing is also that i choose a camera for 60% based on image quality and 40% based on ease of use, workflow, size, weight, power consumption, price, built in nd's etc. AC and producers choose for 70% based on the latter i think.

Red is a bit a victim of its own modular design and with the introduction of the Epic really missed a big chance to fix some of the essential problems the red one had. The Epic should have been a fresh start with a camera that worked flawless out of the box, that could have shifted perception quite a bit. Main problems i hear about and experience myself are:
- reliability (stable firmware with alot of the features they have in the firmware now, finally the epic are gettings quite reliable now, but that took way to long)
- connectivity ( should have been a second evf/lcd port, power out, better place for hd sdi, double hd-sdi ports, psf option for hd-sdi o connect older equipment, timecode input without breakout cable, and 2 full size xlr inputs in the initial design of the epic, that would have made quite a difference in perception)
- 1080p delivery directly. (The upcoming proxy module should have been there from day one the epic was released, that would have made a HUGE difference. Still has tocome out asap)

These are all valid points to dislike the epic and choose for a alexa. I think dragon plus the toia proxy/mini io module can change the tide quite alot, but they better come fast and without any reliability issues

 

[Jay Birch]

Unless the negative perception in your area is really hurting your business, I just don't see why anyone cares. If you have a RED, you have a great camera, if you have an Alexa/F65/F3/C300/Black Magic etc.... You have a great camera.

If the negative perception is very bad, then you need to find a way to educate people or you need to step away from your own bias and move to a new system.

 

[Mark Toia]

I think this thread was designed to generate and argument only... Im glad its held strong so far.

 

[Evin Grant]

I work extensively with both cameras, I don't hate the Alexa by any means, but after spending countless hours looking at both images on a wide variety of monitors and projections I can honestly say I just prefer the look of the Epic. There may be a bit more highlight room in the Alexa but at a cost of color rendition and resolution that is just not worth it. I know I'm in the minority because everyone laudes the skin tones on the Alexa but never really look into what the trade off was to get them. Another thing I'll mention is although both camera systems have been generally equally reliable the Alexa is the only camera I've ever had corrupt footage on set in a catastrophic way with no indication until the footage was reviewed, and neither the rental house or Arri could/would tell us what went wrong.
Lastly all the imaging aside there is something to be said for size, I prefer the versatility of a smaller form factor but most larger shows I work on seem to feel naked without a hulking beast of a camera.
They even talk about the Alexa as being a "mini-cam" compared to the 35mm film cameras they were used to. Attitudes and ingrained paradigms die hard, the Alexa strikes the right balance of ease of use and ease of workflow that makes many comfortable, but it does not measure up to the pure imaging potential of the Epic. Unfortunately for those of us that really value it, ultimate image quality is no longer the driving factor it once was.

 

[noah newtown]

its very easy to hate these cameras formfactor, blackshading for different shutter speeds?!, lowlight noise, websitelook etc. etc. etc.
its not a alexa or 5d go out and shoot...you have to know what you´re doing - its RAW its 5K its revolutionary

 

[Mark Phelan]

Unfortunately for those of us that really value it, ultimate image quality is no longer the driving factor it once was.

This is but one part of the issue. People will take convenience over quality virtually all of the time, especially if it costs less. But the Alexa costs more than the Epic, how can that be? Well yes and no. The Alexa is not the type of camera that most will purchase. It's price is too far above what the masses will tolerate, so it is rented by most. The Epic/Scarlet is the next generation in the tsunami caused by RED selling "affordable" cameras. This causes two reactions. On the Alexa side, we have hoards of users who cannot and will not buy the camera, but use it daily. It's a good camera, and ARRI has a loyal following who would have been very amenable to anything digital produced the company. RED created a fan base of owner-operators who chose to spend their hard-earned money on a system they believe to be superior and therefore will have a devoted following.

So on one side, we have a group of non-owners who can claim superiority because they are not tied down to owning any particular camera and choose the Alexa, while on the other side, we have folks who voted with their own wallet by purchasing the RED system of goodies. It is very easy for someone who doesn't own either camera to make bold claims because of their perceived impartiality, but I don't value that as much because there is no cost to them. They have not made a hard decision like an owner did about which camera to buy. In my opinion, it takes more guts to make a choice than to always sit on a fence and cast aspersions about how they are superior in their view.

Both cameras are fine cameras, but the sales/ownership models are completely different. ARRI is setting themselves up to be owned by a very elite few, sticking with the sales model that served them well over the past many years. RED came in and destroyed the status quo, and is reaping the praise and scorn for doing so. If anyone sticks up for RED they are labled a fanboy as an attempt to discredit the opinion. But RED has nothing to be ashamed of, for in the past five years, they have broken the mold and continue to pursue a new course.

 

[Francesco Bonomo]

So on one side, we have a group of non-owners who can claim superiority because they are not tied down to owning any particular camera and choose the Alexa, while on the other side, we have folks who voted with their own wallet by purchasing the RED system of goodies.

And in the middle there are lots of people (like myself and many many many others) who would use Arri, Red, Sony, Canon, Digital, Film, etc, without making such a big deal about it and without claiming any kind of "superiority". Some prefer one system, some prefer another. Some, simply put, use both and don't have a strong preference, but rather they evaluate a lot of things when choosing which camera to use for a specific project. If they're "forced" to use a camera system instead of another, they just try to make the best out of it. And personally I think it's great we have many different choices. The moment you're fine with recognizing it's "either/or" instead of "vs.", all the fanboy crap and the "my camera is better than yours" stuff goes out of the window. (Obviously I can imagine it's different for someone who's invested a lot of money in a system)

It is very easy for someone who doesn't own either camera to make bold claims because of their perceived impartiality, but I don't value that as much because there is no cost to them. They have not made a hard decision like an owner did about which camera to buy. In my opinion, it takes more guts to make a choice than to always sit on a fence and cast aspersions about how they are superior in their view.

Mark, I respect your opinion but let me express a slightly different yet compatible point of view: impartiality of not owning a camera goes both ways, i.e. when evaluating the pros and cons of each system, knowing there's no perfect camera for everything out there. Some owners have a tendency to defend their camera and the brand to an extent that sometimes is almost pathetic, like they're trying to sell the camera themselves (and this is not in any way directed solely at Red owners). It's not about "sitting on a fence because of lack of guts": I've always liked the rental system, I've never felt the need to invest a fortune in a camera system, and I have no interest in starting that kind of business. I respect those who think otherwise, but is it that difficult to imagine that a lot of people are happy with using those tools without feeling the need of owning them?

 

[Mark Phelan]

Francesco, have no problem whatsoever with anything you said. All valid points. There is a mindset in the photography world of always having to have the latest and greatest. It sadly becomes a measure of one's manhood and I believe that is where some of the vitriol lies, as stupid as that notion is. If someone questions our viewpoint, then it becomes a call to arms. Utter nonsense!

I believe the paradigm is changing about how equipment is used and by whom. Surprisingly, I couldn't care less about owning a camera, Epic or otherwise. For the time being, it makes sense for me to do so. I don't view myself as a cameraman or DoP, it would be a very limited viewpoint of what I actually do. These cameras are a tool like anything else. To each his own.

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

Virtually every show in town is Alexa. Rentals have tanked and so it's up to me to generate new projects in order to pay off the cameras. I don't necessarily have a problem with that, but I am the lone voice in the woods -or in my case...the prairies.

The blessing and the curse has been the affordability. At some point Jim realized this and stated Red is a professional company. Accessories started being priced at pro levels. The Scarlet came out as a pro camera. These events didn't make some happy since they had already invested in gen 1 hardware, but it is what it is.

We've had 4K RAW for so long now -I don't know why any filmmaker who takes the art seriously wouldn't want RAW and 5 or 6K...the possibilities outweigh the arguments Steve's already articulated. And let's face it affordable tools exist to create 4K masters...all we need is for RedRay Pro and Red Projector to be released and one company will have complete authoring capabilities right from acquisition. As soon as this happens people will begin to understand why 4K matters.

Very much looking forward to the release of Meizler as it should address any issues people may have. The latest camera builds with playback picture and sound are fairly mature. RC3 & RG3 are excellent -even applying to old clips from years ago are improved.

Red requires dedication. Time. Investment. It's different than fanboy-ism. I liken it to buying a car...normally we buy because of looks, price, and what it can do. But most of us pay little or no attention to how the motor runs and all those moving parts hidden from view that make the vehicle work. With Red, ya gotta get under the hood and get dirty.

 

[Bill Anderson]

Don't apply your personal LUT in order to make sense of other creative minds, it ain't gonna work. The best thing we have going for us is our creative voice. Silence them with art.

 

[Mike Kushner]

I think one thing Red could do to make the Epic more attractive is to include time lapse intervals greater than one second (like most other current, professional, digital camera i know of in the world)...instead of requiring an upgrade (to Dragon) to shoot time lapse. (intervals longer than one second)

Another thing Red could do to make the gear more attractive to producers and production managers is to create a module that will allow ready to edit 1080 files on set...that doesn't require a half truck full of carts and computers and specialty cards and an operator to transcode. (high speed too...digital recorder works for sync sound)

Also...the little pains like not being able to hook up an EVF and a Touchscreen at the same time without waiting for the next "module" to be released makes the platform seem less than professional at the highest level. Also Red in my opinion should discontinue products like the Quad Battery Module. (again...just not a professional device in my opinion with batteries that take 4 hours to charge and last 15minutes)
Judging by all the Quad Modules for sale on REDUser...i think many people would agree.

Lastly, it would be smart if they waited to release tried and tested and bug free software and hardware. I understand technology moves at the speed of light and they want to be the first on the block to release...but when you ship a new product there is only one chance for a first impression and the buggy software or hardware can ruin the first and last impression. (and has, in my opinion, in many cases)

The Redmote prior to antenna upgrade was not good...now that the antenna is updated, i'm still reluctant to use the Redmote since my prior experience was so bad...and even with "release" builds, the Epic is still very buggy. Often when I re-plug from the EVF to the Touchscreen or vice versa the camera will need a re-boot. Often when i use the "magnify" button on the viewfinder the screen turns black. This software and hardware was released before it was tried and true and that just puts a bad taste in peoples mouth when you're stressed out on a shoot and the gear bugs slow you down.

That is my opinion for the reasons that most high-level DP's, and producers are edging away. (with the exception of a few of the converted...Fincher, Jackson, etc.)

I really like both my Epic and RED One MX. This is stated out of desire to improve the platform for positive reasons...not a complaint or airing of grievances. What the folks at RED have done is great...it's inspired the whole market...but moving forward these things should be improved if the camera will be considered the robust, professional device it should be.

 

[Andrew Burhoe]

I think this thread was designed to generate and argument only... Im glad its held strong so far.

I started this solely on the perception that I would get people talking about what I saw as the elephant in the room. I see it in blogs a lot that deal with filmmaking. Many I came across put RED down. Say praise Alexa and other cameras. Sure arguments would arise and I'm glad they did. So far no has been rude which makes me the happiest.

The idea was to get people talking and discussing as to what they thought on the belief of "why RED sucks". That's all.

I really hope people see that in the end they are just CAMERAS and tools for the art of cinematography and storytelling.

 

[Andrew Burhoe]

I think one thing Red could do to make the Epic more attractive is to include time lapse intervals greater than one second (like most other current, professional, digital camera i know of in the world)...instead of requiring an upgrade (to Dragon) to shoot time lapse. (intervals longer than one second)

Another thing Red could do to make the gear more attractive to producers and production managers is to create a module that will allow ready to edit 1080 files on set...that doesn't require a half truck full of carts and computers and specialty cards and an operator to transcode. (high speed too...digital recorder works for sync sound)

Also...the little pains like not being able to hook up an EVF and a Touchscreen at the same time without waiting for the next "module" to be released makes the platform seem less than professional at the highest level. Also Red in my opinion should discontinue products like the Quad Battery Module. (again...just not a professional device in my opinion with batteries that take 4 hours to charge and last 15minutes)
Judging by all the Quad Modules for sale on REDUser...i think many people would agree.

Lastly, it would be smart if they waited to release tried and tested and bug free software and hardware. I understand technology moves at the speed of light and they want to be the first on the block to release...but when you ship a new product there is only one chance for a first impression and the buggy software or hardware can ruin the first and last impression. (and has, in my opinion, in many cases)

The Redmote prior to antenna upgrade was not good...now that the antenna is updated, i'm still reluctant to use the Redmote since my prior experience was so bad...and even with "release" builds, the Epic is still very buggy. Often when I re-plug from the EVF to the Touchscreen or vice versa the camera will need a re-boot. Often when i use the "magnify" button on the viewfinder the screen turns black. This software and hardware was released before it was tried and true and that just puts a bad taste in peoples mouth when you're stressed out on a shoot and the gear bugs slow you down.

That is my opinion for the reasons that most high-level DP's, and producers are edging away. (with the exception of a few of the converted...Fincher, Jackson, etc.)

I really like both my Epic and RED One MX. This is stated out of desire to improve the platform for positive reasons...not a complaint or airing of grievances. What the folks at RED have done is great...it's inspired the whole market...but moving forward these things should be improved if the camera will be considered the robust, professional device it should be.

The one thing I had a pain in the ass with was the 4pin LEMO on the EPIC for jamming. I had wished they would and still wish they would make it have a 5pin LEMO. If I'm wrong on this impression correct me.

As for the EPIC having bugs I agree. But if people are not willing to fight and make the voices heard with corrective and positive criticism to help fix and alleviate what problems we all have then nothing gets fixed. Like the above mentioned. No one helped. May be I went through the wrong avenues to find out. What ended up happening was going back to the old model of clacking and syncing in post.

I had read about how DPs take the ALEXA through rain during shoots. That is something I wish any RED camera could do. To me that is hardest thing to deal with on a set when you need to go to cover and waste 3hrs moving around. Hell you lost the day and may not be able to go back.

With the batteries what we did on shoots was use a battery hopper with two RED Bricks from our RED One MX. When those 6 all ran out we had a RED Epic battery in the camera ready to go for back up. Only had to do that once.

What I will say that I hope for future development with RED Epic is the keeping of the camera body itself, but focusing on the larger sensor. 5K happened. Well I hope for the day of the 617 sensor. I think that was just a guess, but it had been rumored to be 28K. I am dying for that. If I am out of a huge loop someone tell me.

But back to one thing. Sometimes fighting for image quality and resolution maybe better than fighting for ease of use. It's like if someone fights to be lazy than to fight for better pay at work. Just my opinion and that no of one else.

 

[Antony M]

I find myself often frustrated with my RED experiences. I own an Epic and a Scarlet. I find the low light in tungsten light way too noisy for my own tastes. I find it frustrating that audio is not enabled on playback, even though I've seen videos from RED saying it is. But then only in Beta software.

I'm in a similar situation.

I bought a Red One, and then went for a Stage 2 Epic-X, based on Jim's word and the spec sheets.

But now (2.5 years later?) we still don't have several of the features which made me choose to upgrade. And worse than just not having those features yet, is that despite many people asking over and over again what is happening, no one from Red will give an answer.

1. Pre-roll (we had this on the Red One, but not yet on the Epic)

2. Full frame 1080p. This was the main reason I upgraded to the Epic from the Red One. (Well, this and the 9 second boot up time).

3. Exposures of longer than 1 second.

 

[Adrian Jebef]

Why don't "people get the RED" ?

Besides the endless smoke and mirrors... There is nothing intuitive about the camera.


Discuss...

 

[Vadim Bobkovsky]

sick of hearing this red fanaticism everytime on this forum..

Well, this is Red forum after all. I read all kinds of ridiculous stuff posted in Canon/Arri/35mm cinematography forum threads on weekly basis. Somehow only red lovers are fortunate enough to being called "fanatics" out there. That's fine, I guess. At least they've moved on since the "vapourware scam" days, haven't they?

 

[Mark Phelan]

Why don't "people get the RED" ?

Besides the endless smoke and mirrors... There is nothing intuitive about the camera.


Discuss...

That is a load of Intact Adult Male Bovine Detritus. It's the simplest camera I've ever owned.

 

[Matt Gottshalk]

Why don't "people get the RED" ?

Besides the endless smoke and mirrors... There is nothing intuitive about the camera.


Discuss...

I'll make sure I tell that to the DP I rented my camera too.

Never used it before.

Had no problem changing any of the settings to his liking.

 

[Vadim Bobkovsky]

Also most DP's do not find the high frequent upgrades that red provide as anyting good,as they look for a standard that can replace their old film...film as a standard was fixed for over 100 years

But film cameras and especially film stock greatly improved over the years. Anyone in his right mind would prefer shooting on the cleanest Kodak Vision 3 available today, rather than on some older grainier one, unless the DP is going for the certain look. If anyone is afraid of sensor upgrades, they seriously should think twice about that. New sensor is like new film stock - better DR, better colors, less grain and the feel is closer to what we like to call "organic". As much as I appreciate MX and some mighty good movies shot on it, I can't wait to see what the Dragon is going to offer. Can't speak for everyone, obviously, but I for one welcome our new upgraded sensor overlords.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Before Adrian gets run over, he has worked on some sets. http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1346480/

I think he's looking to discuss. His question is not totally out of line. I've had many people say they feel Alexa is more intuitive. I think the companies just take different approaches and to be fair to RED they are offering a lot more options/customization, hence more menus and perhaps not as easy to operate. Spending a few hours with either camera will get you up to speed quickly. So, I personally don't think it's a big deal, although one can get rusty. I did a bunch of Alexa jobs in a row and then did an Epic job and it took a little bit to reacquaint myself. But neither of these cameras are particularly difficult when it really comes down to it. I feel like the Sony cameras of the past that had tons of menus and hidden items were much more difficult in that regard.