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12-bit or 16-bit? Scarlet specs that no one seems to know....

Matthew Scott

Matthew Scott

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So I've searched and browsed and googled and jived but I can't find a definite answer. Not because I need an ego boost about how awesome my scarlet is, and not to win an insanely heated forum argument.....I would just like to know because when I write my blog (www.mattscottvisuals.com) or talk at seminars and workshops, I don't want to make a fool out of myself informing people that the image files from RED's Scarlet-X are 16-bit. I did find one post that gave me the closest "proof" when a guy literally did the math from the file size which came up around 12-bit, but I can't seem to find anything from RED, or any solid documentation.

Has it been stated? And if so, where? The RED One's description states that it is 12-bit....anyone know FOR SURE what the Scarlet is? The recorded R3D file that is.

Thanks heaps! And sorry if this has been answered before.
 
few posts for you to read, but from all we have been told it's 16 bit.

the first one has the best answers straight from red.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?73953-EPIC-12-and-16-bit-RAW&highlight=16bit

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?62103-EPIC-12-bit-and-16-bit-Recording-Options

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?82824-16-BIT-REDRAW&highlight=16bit

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?76901-Scarlet-Canon-Sony-frustration/page3

oh and it's listed on the official spec sheet on the red.com website under products, scarlet, tech specs...

http://www.red.com/products/scarlet

... or on the store page for the scarlet itself under tech specs

http://www.red.com/store/products/scarlet-x-brain-only
 
I get the feeling The Epic and Scarlet use variable bit rate depending on image detail.
 
SCARLET and EPIC produce R3Ds that have 12 bits of color depth. that's 4096x4096x4096 = about 68 billion colors. (I believe the 16 bit part is internal color processing or A2D conversions)
to maintain this wonderful depth you would need to use either high level image sequences (DPX, EXR, TIFF) in either 12 or 16 bit versions, original R3Ds or the exceptionally useful ProRes 4444.
you'll have to work in a software environment and pipeline that supports 12+ bits in renders and timelines

and if you want to monitor 12 bits ...

you would need a supporting IO card
... I wonder if RED ROCKET allows full 12 bit monitoring

and the most expensive monitors around

or... :) the already much awaited REDRAY projector, which is supposed to support 12 bit depth

HD-SDI out in both cameras is 10 bit BTW.

there is no 16 bit video or digital cinema file currently in existence that i am aware of
high end film scans may be scanned to 16 bit tiffs ... but that's film... and its not projected at 16 bit, its printed back to film

hope this helps.
 
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Thanks heaps for your explanations and findings, I really appreciate it :)

So what we know for sure is that the camera processes, internally, at 16-bits, but the resulting R3D's are 12-bit right? Hell, I'm happy with 10-bit's, but it's more about a definite spec that I'm after. I mean, the canon DSLR's are 14-bit RAW (stills) but we know the video is 4:2:0 8-bit....
 
Matthew Scott said:
Thanks heaps for your explanations and findings, I really appreciate it :)

Hell, I'm happy with 10-bit's, but it's more about a definite spec that I'm after. I mean, the canon DSLR's are 14-bit RAW (stills) but we know the video is 4:2:0 8-bit....
Click to expand...

you're welcome

that's exactly the point...
broadcast TV and the internet are 8 bits
most cameras are 8 bit

some cameras are 10 bit... and considered the peak, they are priced accordingly, most BTW, will give you 10 bits, but at 4:2:2

then there are monitors (which at most are 8 bits)
IO cards (which are in majority 10 bits max)
and softwares (which are where most bits get lost, truncated, and converted) where workflows and pipelines need to be carefully handled even in 10 bit world
and of course the computing and storage horse power for all this bit goodness...

so 12 bits...?

12 bit video files only exist from a handful of cameras. and 12 bits are one of the main reasons I own a RED.
that's what cuts the difference color wise from most cameras out there, and in the SCARLET's case, from ANY camera at its price range.

10 bits are hardly the present... 12 bits are definitely the future :) its fun to work today with future stuff

and stills have nothing to do with anything, at least as long as they cannot maintain adequate frame rates (and even then)
..
 
Yes! Working with a camera from the future is pretty fun, totally agree :) I'm looking at purchasing a 10-bit monitor soon (as I'm getting a lot more color work) but like you say, the audience rarely will see higher than 10-bits on the jobs I shoot/color. Although, we are pretty lucky here in Melbourne, there is an old-school theatre with brand new 4k projectors! Recently watched a university screening there where every film was shot on EPIC. I did some tests looking at the difference between 10-bit and 12-bit and I could see it (in banding artifacts on a gradient) but I doubt anyone who wasn't looking would have noticed.
Thanks again for the input :)

* Those sentences were poorly placed......the banding I saw at home whilst grading one of the films, not in the 4k cinema.
 
The key thing here while most displays don't support higher bit depths, you have the tonal and color control over your imagery with your source material being a higher bit depth. Especially when doing aggressive grades or VFX work.

One thing I mentioned many moons ago as a great stress test on any codec is pushing the saturation to it's limits:
A001_C001_0107K6.0000083.jpg


And a sample from Tonaci from the very first Scarlet.

Orginal:
tonacci_MaxSat.jpg


Plus 100% Saturation in a 16 bit environment:
tonacci_MaxSatPlus100.jpg


It's not something you'd ever really do, but it will show you the limits and abilities of what your camera can capture.
 
Thanks for the links Hector!! :)

And Phil, thanks for the examples. I'm aware of the crazy bit depth we get to play with and it's benefits (even if it is 12-bit, and even if I only play with it on an 8-bit LED hehe) - Was just curious as to what it actually is 100%, according to RED. Just so when I educate others about the camera, I'm not talking shit. Cheers!
 
Patrick Tresch said:
16 or 12 bit are not meant for display but for capture & postproduction.

Pat
Click to expand...

and in proper post production you would at least hope to display your full color depth

as well as the very near future of digital projection.
 
Patrick Tresch said:
I would expect to display what the human eye can see.


Pat
Click to expand...

in projection tests

more than 80% of viewers notice banding in 8 bits
about 50% of viewers see banding in 10 bits

and about 2 % see it in 12 bit

makes a good argument for what the human eye can properly see.
 
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