Media Composer 6.5 - so what's new for RED workflow?

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

Anything at all? I can't see much difference from 6.0, if any.

http://shop.avid.com/store/product....57347E86AA84.ASTPESD2?product=307958492843472

Can't see how its worth the $499. Curious to know if there's something under the covers that makes it worthwhile to upgrade. I'm certainly interested in a clean roundtrip with Davinci Resolve. Does it deliver on that atleast?

 

[MichaelP]

The R3D AMA Plug-in is in final phases of testing that will support RedGamma3 and RedColor3. The additional conform/relink feature now allows you to start in Redcine X Pro and finish via AMA and vice versa. These would be the features that affect RED workflows the most.

Michael

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Also, the ability to switch from software to hardware mode is big, although certainly not RED specific.

JPEG2000 archiving mastering is probably something that will have some legs.

Improvements in re-linking media to take advantage of more metadata is helpful.

I think some have hit some roadblocks with Media Composer 6 in terms of stability and speed, and it's left some folks scratching their head wondering what's going on with Avid. I think what's going on is by opening things up with hardware independence we are seeing lots of different configurations and I don't think they are all working 100% yet. For example, I recently re-configured my Mac Pro to have a GTX285 video card, Kona 3, and ATTO R380. Fresh installs of
MC 6.0.3, FCP 7, and CS6. So far, the MC is working a lot better than it did when I had my system setup with GTX285, GT120, BM Decklink SDI and Red Rocket installed in the Mac. So by giving people freedom, they may in the short term be at the mercy of a hardware free-for-all. Hardware setups that work well for CS6 may not be ideal for MC. As the I/O drivers get better, perhaps some of this instability will subside. But I think it's got to be causing them a bit of a headache right now. Although not everyone in Hollywood has jumped onto the V6 bandwagon yet, there are some movies and TV shows cutting on it and they wouldn't be if it was a complete disaster. I'm sure their systems have been configured in a way that they are optimized to work with MC and not to be all purpose machines running 50 different pieces of software, with all kinds of storage setups, and who knows what drivers installed. Does V6 have bugs? Yes. Will 6.5? Yes. But there shouldn't be any showstoppers at this point. If there are, let them know.

Michael, maybe you and I can get together and do a video on RED/Media Composer workflow including roundtripping between Avid and Resolve 9, Redcine-X, metadata, sound synching etc. Seems like it might be beneficial to the community.

 

[Andrew Patterson]

I'm an Avid Editor of 12 years and this upgrade is laughable.

 

[BRANDON JAMESON]

I'm an Avid Editor of 12 years and this upgrade is laughable.

+1.....AVID has got to be kidding.

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

Yeah pretty underwhelming. Amazing that for probably 3 years or so I have asked them about greater than 1920x1080 from within the beta program.

Nothing but "that's what DS is for," even though Kona 3 can handle greater than 1920x1080 resolution...MC and Symphony can't even create projects beyond that project resolution. Would be great if they would open things up a bit more, but I guess they're figuring for an extra 10,000 you can get Nitris and cross platform for those of us on Macs (no plans to create a Mac version of DS).

 

[D Fuller]

Michael, maybe you and I can get together and do a video on RED/Media Composer workflow including roundtripping between Avid and Resolve 9, Redcine-X, metadata, sound synching etc. Seems like it might be beneficial to the community.

It would be very beneficial indeed. All of these programs have changed a lot since the last time anything like this was done.

 

[Michael Dalton]

Michael, maybe you and I can get together and do a video on RED/Media Composer workflow including roundtripping between Avid and Resolve 9, Redcine-X, metadata, sound synching etc. Seems like it might be beneficial to the community.

Steve you would be well liked if you do!!! I'd really like some options for MC round trip, especially with Resolve! Would love to see what people are doing for 4k Redcine to 1080p, then back to 4k in resolve for finishing. Also from there, where do we to make a 4k master.

As for Avid, they are really dropping the ball on 4k workflows. They need to get with it quickly, or they will lose all those who came over from FCP. How hard would it be to have a project that loads 4k or 5k into a project, render all clips behind the scenes to 1080p DNX36 or DNX115, but it knows where to find both files, so you can toggle between 1080 and 4k at the click of a button. If you delete a 1080 file, it just renders a new one. Editing for the future.

 

[Eric J Robbins]

I would imagine that resolution independence is coming in MC 7, along with non-standard time bases, such as 48FPS. If it doesn't, Avid is just throwing away the golden opportunity that came their way when Apple released Final Cut X.

 

[BRANDON JAMESON]

I would imagine that resolution independence is coming in MC 7, along with non-standard time bases, such as 48FPS. If it doesn't, Avid is just throwing away the golden opportunity that came their way when Apple released Final Cut X.

It sure won't be the first time.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

The move to 64-bit seems to be a first step. I think Avid has mentioned that as they continue this transition, they will be implementing new features such as increased resolutions. But as I have mentioned before, not every editor out there wants to be cutting in 4K. Once the foundation is there to support it and make it a seamless feature, then perhaps editors will have a look. But for many of them - speed is the number one priority. They don't want the technology getting in the way. It's why many tv shows and movies still cut at DNxHD36. The machines can handle higher quality but for many editors 36 is enough to work with efficiently. They want realtime. When you have a director or producer sitting in the room with you, it's all about flow. You have to keep things moving, cut after cut, minimizing renders or other technical obstructions to the creative process.

Now, that's not to say that 4K editing isn't here and isn't being utilized. We know it is. But I don't think Avid needs an ultimatum yet on this particular issue because a large part of their user base isn't demanding it. Offline/online still has a place.

 

[Eric Santiago]

I'm an Avid Editor of 12 years and this upgrade is laughable.

Why is this laughable?
If you've been dealing with Avid over the last 12 years like I have, you knew this was coming.
You know the drill, credit card or p.o.

 

[M Most]

...But for many of them - speed is the number one priority. They don't want the technology getting in the way. It's why many tv shows and movies still cut at DNxHD36. The machines can handle higher quality but for many editors 36 is enough to work with efficiently. They want realtime. When you have a director or producer sitting in the room with you, it's all about flow. You have to keep things moving, cut after cut, minimizing renders or other technical obstructions to the creative process.

There are a number of reasons that have nothing to do with either speed, image quality, or who's sitting in the room that contribute to nearly all television series cutting on DNx36 (some use DNx115, but the vast majority use 36). For one thing, television series today are shot in numerous locations, but over 90% of them are edited and finished in Los Angeles. Getting dailies back to the cutting room requires files that are compact enough to allow for efficient transmission when the dailies are synced and processed in another location but sent to the cutting room each day. In addition, television series are now commonly shot with multiple cameras and usually create hours of material per day, often 3 hours or more. This in turn requires storage that is much larger than in the past, and for most shows, it is useful and often necessary to keep as much of the season's material on line as possible for possible use in flashbacks, recaps, and other things. The combination of efficient data transmission and the need for voluminous amounts of storage are the primary factors behind the choice of DNx36 as the editing codec.

 

[Paul Toth]

I've been an Avid customer since 1997 and I'm here to say that I now use Adobe CS6! Actually started to switch on CS3 and 4 but didn't fully switch until 5. I still upgraded to MC6 but I'm done upgrading. In fact I'm pretty much done with the whole Avid mindset (I do like the DNxHD codec tho). Avid is trying to desperately hang on to whatever they have left. (I always thought that if Adobe and Avid got together they'd create an uber powerful NLE system unbeatable by the rest)

At the end of the day it's your talent as an editor not the platform or software, right!?!

 

[Nick Morrison]

I'm a promo producer working in broadcast, dealing with TONS of varied media, and I have to say...I'm a big FAN of Avid. It's robust, rarely crashes, and I can run FOUR ROOMS at once all in the same project. Lays to tape perfectly, too (yup, people are still doing that!).

This latest upgrade doesn't seem to provide that much new, but I am looking forward to 7.

 

[Michael Dalton]

I'm a promo producer working in broadcast, dealing with TONS of varied media, and I have to say...I'm a big FAN of Avid. It's robust, rarely crashes, and I can run FOUR ROOMS at once all in the same project. Lays to tape perfectly, too (yup, people are still doing that!).

This latest upgrade doesn't seem to provide that much new, but I am looking forward to 7.

I agree, I'm a big fan of Avid, but I'm afraid that they suffer from what Arri does, too top heavy with execs that would rather put money into their bonuses instead of doing what it takes to deliver the next big leap. It's pretty evident that people want 4k, and would love to have the option load it into timeline. For me, a proxy switch would save me a lot of time. I would also like to see Red open up post process better and not force us to use Red Rocket. If Black Magic and Aja were making cards we'd see leaps and bound in work flows. I'd pay a few hundred in licence fees to Red per card to let them do this, so they don't need lose out. If they make more off of rockets, they'd make up for it in volume, and people not saying that post is a bottle neck.

My last shoot was a month, and almost a month later i'm still converting files.

 

[Andrew Patterson]

Why is this laughable?
If you've been dealing with Avid over the last 12 years like I have, you knew this was coming.
You know the drill, credit card or p.o.

I guess I laughed because I saw the product additions and thought, "Oh nice, a free upgrade!"
There was some point in the Media Express days when a few upgrades came at no additional cost -- this upgrade felt comparable to that. Or $299 at the most.
But I wouldn't dare say that on the Avid Forum -- since I don't have 5,000+ posts I would be instantly deemed WRONG.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

There are a number of reasons that have nothing to do with either speed, image quality, or who's sitting in the room that contribute to nearly all television series cutting on DNx36 (some use DNx115, but the vast majority use 36). For one thing, television series today are shot in numerous locations, but over 90% of them are edited and finished in Los Angeles. Getting dailies back to the cutting room requires files that are compact enough to allow for efficient transmission when the dailies are synced and processed in another location but sent to the cutting room each day. In addition, television series are now commonly shot with multiple cameras and usually create hours of material per day, often 3 hours or more. This in turn requires storage that is much larger than in the past, and for most shows, it is useful and often necessary to keep as much of the season's material on line as possible for possible use in flashbacks, recaps, and other things. The combination of efficient data transmission and the need for voluminous amounts of storage are the primary factors behind the choice of DNx36 as the editing codec.

I would agree with this. I'm fairly used to having to move hundreds of gigabytes a day over secure data lines so that editorial can cut with that material the next day. On a movie I did last summer, we were averaging about 4-6 TB a day which then needed to be crunched down to DNxHD 36 for editorial and H.264 for PIX. So, you're absolutely right that in this kind of scenario the easy choice is 36. Native editing even if Avid offered 4K resolutions would be useless for these kind of workflows. But, I understand that not everyone is working this way and some see benefit in having these larger resolutions. I just personally feel for a lot of jobs DNxHD is a lightweight codec that never really gets in the way of editing.

 

[BRANDON JAMESON]

The move to 64-bit seems to be a first step. I think Avid has mentioned that as they continue this transition, they will be implementing new features such as increased resolutions. But as I have mentioned before, not every editor out there wants to be cutting in 4K. Once the foundation is there to support it and make it a seamless feature, then perhaps editors will have a look. But for many of them - speed is the number one priority. They don't want the technology getting in the way. It's why many tv shows and movies still cut at DNxHD36. The machines can handle higher quality but for many editors 36 is enough to work with efficiently. They want realtime. When you have a director or producer sitting in the room with you, it's all about flow. You have to keep things moving, cut after cut, minimizing renders or other technical obstructions to the creative process.

Now, that's not to say that 4K editing isn't here and isn't being utilized. We know it is. But I don't think Avid needs an ultimatum yet on this particular issue because a large part of their user base isn't demanding it. Offline/online still has a place.

IMPO - The concept of “online - offline" certainly has its place in some specific workflows, but I believe what pisses off many loyal AVID users like myself, is that AVID does not offer us the possibility of unlimited finishing in the AVID if we choose to.

To be clear, the very IDEA that Premiere DOES offer "online-offline" in one sweet, inexpensive package and AVID still can't seem to see that this ability is now reality for editors looking for those options not only in Premiere, but in Edius and Smack.

The addition of the new Baselight Plug-in now gives us the ability to add a LUT in Symphony (something AVID would never do, leaving that for the "online” workflow clumsiness of the dated DS product) gives us a more holistic way to "online in AVID", however, the restriction to then release all that CC goodness in 1080, for many is a major joy-kill.

If you have ever tried to "offline" on a MAC Symphony and then have to "online" on a PC based DS, you know the time consuming, expensive and archaic hoops you have to go through that scream "welcome back to the 80's". A place where IMPO, AVID feels most comfortable.

We've invested heavily in $$$$Symphony Nitris suites and various$$$$ flavors of AVID UNITY file sharing platforms, which perform beautifully when editing projects on multiple edit bays and finishing in 1080.
But, it kills me to now have my editors asking to start AND finish in PREMIERE for deliverables larger than 1080.

As other NLEs strengthen their abilities, AVID is showing where their weaknesses based in old code, may outweigh their strengths in many modern workflows.

So, 6.5 feels like a slap in the face from AVID to loyal customers, who have learned to expect more from their NLE for ALOT less.

 

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

Hmm, I started cutting on Premiere as a teen, and've been though most editing systems. Avid is the only system I feel comfortable with. I can't stand Premiere. And I like that I select a resolution when starting a project and Avid automatically converts everything to their fast and nice internal codec system. If they open it up, makes it resolution unlimited, I uninstall the application, quit everything else I'm doing, and start development of my own editing system. But, currently, the only two features i miss are:

- Being able to right click on a clip and press replace. Extremely important when working with VFXs that are continuously updated. I don't want to be fooling around in any other ways, I just want a simple right-click and "replace". The lack of this feature has been _laughable_ (i say it has been, in case it actually found it's way into the system, long overdue, it's been a while since I've been in a cutting room).

- Easy export functions. Quick Time X is brilliant for exporting, with their basic presets i.e. 480p, 720p and 1080p. No more fuzz, audio perfect, picture perfect, plays on an iPhone, an iPad, and every kind of system. No trial and error. Exporting from Avid is a pain, what codec to use for the image, and even more confusing, what codec to use for the audio? Trail and error -> pain.

Secondly, Avid export is extremely slow. We often export projects to uncompressed quick time and use quick time to compress to i.e. 720p for our clients. Faster and easier. Quick Time X is extremely fast, and Avid should be just as fast!