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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Set up time vs a 7D

L

Lars Wikstrom

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I am on the fence about buying a Red camera and thought I would check with some Red owners. Many years ago I was excited about the Red One coming out but it was always was getting delayed. Then the Canon cameras swept across the scene and I bit. Past few years now I have been very happy with my 7D shooting local commercials for mom and pop shops.

But with the 7D I am finding color grading difficult. If I push the footage to far it falls apart. But I really like the fast paced production. I can be set up and rolling in 10 minutes and I normally shoot a restaurant in 2+ hours.

I am worried that if I invest in a RED camera there will be a trade off of speed vs. quality. With Red workflow I now get the quality I need to color correct. But instead of a 2 hour shoot and 4 hour edit with my 7D it is now a 6 hour shoot and a 12 edit with Red footage conversion and extra set up, location changes in a restaurant and break down of gear( that is a guess only about the time).

So if anyone has gone from HDSLR production to a RED workflow can you give me a feel for the trade offs?

Thanks!
 
I've shot extensively with both the Epic and the Canons (and a bunch of other stuff). The workflow doesn't have to be any more complex, to be honest. It just depends on what you want to do and how you prefer to do it.

For example, I used to transcode DSLR footage to ProRes or DNxHD for editing and final color work. So the "time" (as it were) was front-loaded. That footage cuts and colors easily in just about any application you might use. Now, with RED, the "time" is more in the back-end. I can edit with the native R3D files in Premiere, send an EDL to SpeedGrade to do final color, and then the only wait is on the output at the very end. I can certainly do some preliminary color work in REDCINE-X before editing, if I want to.

Post with RED is only as complex as you make it.
 
I find RED setup faster than Canon. With Canon I have to spend a lot longer running through menus making sure it didn't turn on an crap like sharpening or color. And then changing framerate, shutter speed, exposure etc is frustrating and unpredictable. "Ok I'm on "M" but I set the shutter to 50... but it seems to opening the aperture anyway on its own..."

You also don't get histograms etc. Even after running through the menus I still never feel at all confident that it's recording what I want. With RED I just pull it out of the bag. Pop it on a tripod and can immediately see what everything is set to. No uncertainty.
 
I can't help but note that if the speed of your workflow is very important, and you are getting your needs met, and the quality of the DSLR is meeting your needs, why change? Unless you have a burning desire to spend $15 - 40K or more, why buy a RED? Don't get me wrong, I love my Scarlet and would never permanently go back to any of the cameras I previously shot, but this just doesn't seem like the right question to ask when contemplating the move. If you are looking to "up your game" then DO buy a RED; the workflow will take care of itself.
 
I've done "extensive" work with 5D Mark II and 7D. I've also be shooting with Red for a good while now. The only honest trade off for me is that the Red Epic/Scarlet is a bit larger and heavier and final export takes a bit longer. However, I'm using Adobe Premiere Pro CS6 and I never have to do any transcoding. Setup time will vary depending on if you keep your camera in a shooting ready state.

I have a color correction/grading background. The gains by shooting in a deeper bit depth, raw format, and 4k+ are much more important important to me.

That said, the price for a full shooting package is wildly different than DSLRs. Everything is a bit more expensive on this side of the fence. From hard drives to recording media. Again though, the increased image quality is well worth the trade offs on that front for me.

The material I shoot is important to me. I haven't shot 1080p anything this year at all.
 
I don't find much difference in setup time. The Scarlet is not hugely larger than a Canon DSLR, so on set I don't find it a huge difference.

And I find the post process equally involved. With DSLRs, I would convert the H264 quicktimes to Pro Res or DNX Quicktimes. And with RED you have to transcode as well.

But the upside in quality is so huge that it's almost like stepping into a time machine.
 
I get the impression that Lars is asking about build time on set. That's totally up to you, the accessories you use and how you want to pack the camera. I can set up my Epic so that it comes out of the case needing only a lens. Even if I have the thing stripped down, I can have it built in under 5 minutes.

This has never been an issue for me, but then I'm usually ready to go before much of the lighting is in place.

Cheers,
CB
 
shoot within your budget, and workflow...
 
I have both setups ... pro's of the 7d/5d is as long as you don't have all the "shit" on it ... it doesn't look like a film camera ... so you can film just about anywhere (even my zeiss compact .2 doesn't make it look to out of the normal, and i can do a lot of shooting without someone bugging me). Second I pull out my RED stuff ... get ready for some crowd control, I can't even get natural "crowd" shots with the red.

The negative of setup time on the 5d/7d is the second i really have all my junk ... i.e. follow focus, sound, larger lenses ... I just seem to have crap everywhere on my canon setup, and the canon setup for sure takes longer (as there aren't really any nice mount points).

So if your shooting a Naked 5d/7d ... it's really hard to beat the setup time of canon, if you have a bunch of vdslr accessories , red is faster. RED is WAY faster when you start getting the higher end accesories (i.e. timecode, remote focus, PL, anamorphic, etc ...).

Another setup time difference on the red vs canon is with jibs/sliders. RED does weigh more, and you have a tendency to buy the cinema pl glass with RED(not required ... but is something very tempting that increases your camera weight, and if u got pl glass you have a nice matte box ... etc), so you need bigger jibs and stuff - which can drastically add to setup time. [you can shoot light on the red ... it's just a test of self control because you can get so many cool things for RED]
 
It's a trap. Unless you're a hired gun or plan on renting or getting jobs because of 4k or shooting features (your own or others'... but that'd make you a hired gun), I'd argue against switching given the types of projects you do.

Mic for scratch audio, display, batteries that last 1-2 hours, a way to control the camera, cheap/light tripods, media that records for hours, stupidly light weight, off the shelf accessories/replacements, etc. are inherently built-in to your DSLR... None are built-in to your RED. You can't just grab the camera body/lens and shoot; you actually need to kit out your set up depending on the production.

I wouldn't say it takes more time, but you're going to be paying for things (support, arms, rigging, etc.) you'd never even thought about with a DSLR. If you don't buy the kit, you're set up will be cumbersome on location/set, which will definitely slow you down. You can't just say, "Screw it. I'll just use the onboard xxxxxx" because there is nothing onboard. So, say, for example, you get to your location, you go to pull out your mic, and realize that your only XLR cable is shredded or you forgot your mic entirely; with a DSLR, you'd just use onboard and ADR it later. With a Scarlet, you'd basically be boned... sure you'd ADR it later, but without reference audio it's so much harder to match (both timing and tonality).

That's not really good example, but hopefully you get my meaning. Basically you'd need to pay quite a lot to build your rig to be as convenient/comfortable (and hence as fast) as your DSLR... And all for something (RAW and 4k) that your clients most likely will not be paying you extra for.
 
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Depends also on your ambition. The thing is, when you get a Red, you're working without "compromises" anymore: you know your camera is capable of producing images of the quality of"the Girl With The Dragon Tatoo" and other top of the chain films. When you have a camera like this, you will probably push yourself more in order to achieve better pictures, look for different jobs. I have to say that since I got my Epic, also coming from dslr's, I've learned immensely about the craft: about high end post production, about framing, about different approaches to certain shots because the Camera comes with so many possibilities to shoot, from framing to frame rates. This learning and this motivation is something subjective, of course. You're used to drive a Volkswagen, like I did. I always pushed that Volkswagen to the limit and felt I was limited by it. So I decided to drive a Ferrari and am going way, way faster than with my Volkswagen. Have I joined the Ferrari championship yet? Maybe not just yet as a regular, but did a couple of "races" and didnt do too bad. I still race amongst Volkswagens but with my Ferrari. Unfair racing, no doubt. I'm pushing, however, for more Ferrari Championship racing. When I used my Volkswagen in those races, I knew that I could come close but not "win". Now I can :) . Sorry for the analogy speak, but I felt it was the best way to describe what going Red can mean, if you want to push yourself further .
 
I go out to see batman for a few hours and come back to 11 great answers with many common themes. I graduated Cal Arts in 94' and been working in the biz since. I use to surround myself in gear in the 90's and roll a small production truck packed from gaffers tape to c stands. As the game of film / video production has gotten cheaper and all you needed was a mac computer with built in editing software and a mini dv camera in the early 2000's I started scaling back to be more competitive. After my HVX-200 the 7D offered me a higher quality look with dynamic range the HVX could not produce.

My philosophy has changed from lots of gear to shooting with only what I could carry in to the mom and pop shop in 1 go. Camera / lens and Zoom audio in back pack. Tripod and a reflector in 1 had and lowel lighting kit in the other with extension cords in the other. But the last few jobs I have done the clients wanted to push the grading beyond what the compression would really allow. As I brought back skin tones that were greenish I could see tearing around the compression.

I began to feel that I was outgrowing my 7D and need more control in post, and did not want to have a major set up time with a RED. But it sounds that I can leave it set up for the most part to where I will just put on a lens. Also sounds like most of the work in on the back end. I am still using FCP 7.x and have not switched to Premier yet. I would rather sell shoes at Sears then ever edit with FCP X again.

So it sounds like my answer lies in the middle from your replies. Keep the 7D and pick up a Scarlet for jobs that need more love and post control. I have no desire to make the next best feature film (anymore). But I built a reputation in my town of good work and want to keep it good and stay self employed.

Thanks much for the input. I think I will rent a Scarlet for a shoot to test it out before I invest.
 
It depends on your clients and what kind of work you get. I've read about and know DPs who are fortunate enough to be able to travel and work on dozens of things from indies to big time gigs but then there's the other side with stories of people just trying to find work to justify their RED purchase. If you can afford to buy a RED camera without adversly affecting your finances, then the upgrade should be gravy.

I haven't owned a RED, wanted one back in the day but I decided to go to film school instead and continue my education. Since then, I've been one of the first people to ever use an HDSLR for filmmaking (the ol' Nikon D90) and I've been on shoots that have used one RED camera or another and I've seen different ways of doing things on set and in post. I've always tried to do equipment breakdowns for myself over the years, especially since FF and S35-sized sensors took the filmmaking world by storm. Basically it all comes down to how you want to work. Some people like to deck out their cameras with every little fancy gizmo they can find and others just go with the base production pack and a suitable mattebox for blocking light mostly. Me, I'd be fine realistically with a basic bundle plus some extra batteries and memory cards or SSDs with the sole splurge being a small rail and follow focus unit. If I ever needed anything else, I'd rent or buy as needed. Lenses aren't really going to make much of a difference until you start using massive cinema zoom lenses, then you need to invest in or rent heavier duty support equipment, of course, Post really shouldn't be too different once you get used to REDCINE. Needless to say you're going to have to have bigger hard drives for storage and investing in a production monitor and video editing interface like a Kona card wouldn't hurt if you're going to do coloring, otherwise take appropriate measures like using higher-end LCD computer displays and using Spyder calibration on them along with your previewing TVs.

Now, I've seen your comment about trying to do heavy color correction on HDSLR footage about a thousand times. Well, let me tell you, I've pulled and stretched HDSLR footage farther than I ever thought I could from all the HD, HDV, and SD footage I've worked with in the past and I can tell you that even with RED there are going to be limits to how far you can take it. Good color correction really comes from proper exposure and hard decisions in regards to noise tolerance and the overall coloring style of the film. Adding effects doesn't count, you add a whole lot of stuff and eventually the footage will break down naturally. Most of all, you have to play and be creative. On one project I had to crop and layer multiple instances of the same shot with multiple color schemes in each just to get everything to look right. Even now, I'm filming stock footage with my 5D Mark II and one of my quality assurance steps is to do a quick pass to see what the footage would look like if it were corrected for average cinematic purposes. Everything from fog to slight color shifts come out just fine in most cases and if anything doesn't work right, it doesn't get uploaded, but thankfully, so far the only consistent issue is the occasional unnoticed CMOS wobble but even that's fixable to a degree these days. So, all in all, if you're expecting drastically different results just because it's RED footage, you're on the right track, but don't get too carried away, raised mids still bring out noise, raised blacks still look foggy, and overly crushed anything still looks overdone if you're not careful.
 
If you want to keep the speed you're working at and the lenses you're working with but want more "ooommppff" in post I'd look at the Canon C300. My primary camera is the Red Epic and I have all the support to go along with it but it is pretty big and a lot more expensive than what you're used to working with. Keep in mind there are a lot of hidden costs when going with Red. Batteries, you can try going with Redvolts but to get significant run time plan on running Anton/Bauer or similar professional battery system. Red Rocket, Adobe CS6 does do wonders with R3D media but you'll need a Rocket for final output speed or if you start working with Resolve.

On the flip side the C300 is about the same physical size as a Epic/Scarlet but weighs a lot less and consumes a fraction of the power (one of the standard Canon batteries lasts about 3 hours). The Canon 50Mb/s MXF files are easy to edit and don't require any special hardware. The CanonLOG curve does offer more latitude that a standard Rec.709 curve but isn't as heavy as RedLOGFilm or Arri LOG.C so it's a little easier to grade (but doesn't have the colour depth or latitude of Epic/Alexa). Most importantly the fleshtones hold up and don't go right to plastic.

Like I said, I full Red Epic package, it is my primary camera and where I make the majority of my money, but for hand held, verité work I bought a C300 instead of a Scarlet. I did a test before I bought one back in December, these were the results with before/after grading examples: https://vimeo.com/33630265 . Of course I can push my Epic footage much much further in post-colour than I can my C300 footage but C300 is a dramatic leap above what you're working with now.

If this is a camera you're going to purchase keep in mind that the C300 arrives as a complete system. Onboard monitor, viewfinder, camera body, battery, charger, power supply all arrive in the box and the camera has been rock-solid reliable. Any Red purchase will likely arrive in multiple shipments depending on which components are in stock and while new features are constantly being added via firmware upgrades the bugs that pop up can be a challenge.

C300 is a much different camera than Scarlet. They each have their strengths and weaknesses but after reading your needs I'd go with the Canon.

Good luck.
 
I would recommend against a C300 solely because of it's price. Sure it's a great/fast camera (with excellent lowlight), but it still costs $10-15k and doesn't get you much more than hacked GH2 or even 7D (I mean, it does, but not 15x more).

Have you considered the Blackmagic Digital Cinema Camera? It hasn't been released yet (so it could end up being pure crap, even though tests have pointed to the contrary), but it's only $3000. It will give you RAW (or direct to prores/dnxhd) out of the box, 2.5k resolution, and everything needed to make it function is built directly into the body like a DSLR (including a ~1.5hour battery). Mic, display, control, etc. You could probably use it with all of your current kit and it may be exactly what you're looking for. Plus you could pipe the H4n directly into it, easy-peasy.
 
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I have looked at the C300 but thought the same thing about price vs. performance compared to the 7D. Then I read about a new camera they were coming out with, I think it was another version of the 1D that used a better codec like MotionJpeg. Their C300 is still based off of the h264 codec. I found that odd and it seemed Canon was doing everything it could to stay on top. So now you have a c300 with built in audio but same codec as my 7D, and a D1 with a better codec that is a digital still camera but not the c300 they built for film making?

The Black Magic I did not like at NAB. With it's 4/3 sensor will lead to lees DOF which I have come to like and less sensor space to capture light will lead to more grain in low light conditions. I moved the tripod handle side to side at NAB and you could see the obvious rolling shutter that my 7D suffers from too. I have projects that I 3D track from time to time to add 3D elements in with Cinema 4D. trying to track 7D footage that was handheld is almost imposable. BM will be the same.

In the next year I am looking to take the next step. the Sony FS700 was on my radar too with the slow motion, but I think in the long run I would still have color correction problems from time to time because of the codec issue.

I think the best thing to do is rent a Scarlet package and see how it works. Even so, when I first stepped into the 7D it was cumbersome coming from a HVX-200.

Thanks again for the input. This is what I was looking for.
 
If thats a question yhat would determine a choice of camera is like bringing a volkswagon to a formula one race and useing tire change times to justify choice...finding less and less reason to visit the forum.
 
I run and gun as hard as you can. Shooting live motorsports, docs, and all sorts of stuff with my Scarlet.

For one of my clients, motorsports related, I handle everything. From shooting to post and all in between. My deadline is always less than 24 hours from the finish of the event to publishing on the web. Totally solo. I cut every minute of inefficiency out. I don't eat without something copying or rendering and I don't pee unless something is uploading.

RED is no different than 7D (in negative usability aspects) EXCEPT - The camera is heavier, so walking 8 miles into a rally stage in the Mexican desert hurts twice as much, and the files are larger... so you need to carry more hard drives.

Never a problem shooting RED in my life. Well, hotel internet sucks. But other than that.

This is all Scarlet (well, 90%)

Finished shooting at 10pm Pacific time with the end of the event. Posted on the web and ready to go at 1pm PST the next day. No problem. People that say RED workflow is hard are just wrong:


This isn't the most typical REDuser cine style super shallow DOF measured marks type stuff, but it does show you can ENG with a RED all day long and turn it around asap.
 
Great stuff Mark!

Agreed on the workflow. I'm carrying my Epic on a Lowepro Messenger 180w With 2 Canon Lenses daily, similar to what i did with the 7D. I carry 6 redvolts and 5 64GB SSD's. Very heavy bag, but doable, doesn't call for much attention. Just get the camera out of the bag, connect lens, and then shoot. As simple as that. Make sure you get an IS lens if you want to go minimal setup.

I would suggest you budget for a red rocket, a Macbook Pro Retina, or the other non Retina thunderbolt one, get a sonnet thunderbolt PCie enclosure, and take it with you. That is the perfect mobile setup for a Red on location workflow. With this setup you'll be the same or faster than with the 7D in editing. Don't forget the aliasing and Moiré on the 7D, which is my main beef with that camera. If you want to stay DSLR, get a 5D Mark III. Its an upgrade from your 7D and it fixed those main moiré and aliasing issues.
 
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