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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Epic + helicopter shooting shutter speeds & frame rates??

i asked almost the same question, as i am going to hopefully shoot from a helicopter and its my first time... to summarize, people favored slightly over cranking and a slightly faster shutter speed, like a 90 degree shutter angle. it just gives you more options in post. def shoot 5k and a little wider than you think so you can stabilize it in post and crop in if need be.
 
I have done many handheld helicopter shoots with epic and I usually shoot with short shutter time (1/500 about) so I can stabilize afterwards. Important is that the lens is not warping or distorting in the edges. Use really low kompression at least 1:6. I sometimes overcrank, but then my compression ration gets worse, so it's a trade-off. Use safty strap on camera, and remember the shoot always looks cooler in camera in the helicopter then afterwards. Make sure you have the shoot, do it twise or three times, it cost much more to re-shoot the hole day. Have penty of power and easy to get redmags. Test the camera besfore the heli takes off in case you have a problem. Have side handle with redvolt and v-lock power for safety. Shoot without door on heli, and be carful of the airstream when the heli moves fast. It can easily rip the camera from your hand, or remove a cable. Try so stay out of moving air because this causes vibration that is hard to remove aftervwards. And stay on target.. :) Don't move camera arround everywhere. Put some soft electric tape over your seat buckle so you don't accidentally fall out, but also can rip it open if you need to get out in a hurry.
 
Some people use gyros, right? My understanding is those would help with vibration and help keep things more stable?
 
Shaun Cammack said:
Some people use gyros, right? My understanding is those would help with vibration and help keep things more stable?
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Definetly, but they also often more than double the cost of your shoot (depending on how long you shoot), still sometimes it is needed!

If you plan to do only wide shots, you can probably get away without it. If you use a helicopter with a three blade rotor that is newly tracked. The really dirt cheap helicopters also vibrate like crazy. Stay away from a thing like the piston engine Robinson R44, stay with turbofan helicopters - I have had great success onboard Eurocopter 350´s without gyro stabilisation. Also when filming wide, you quite often get the rotors in frame, which is easy to overlook when you are up there.

Higher speeds also naturally generate more winds, if you are shooting without door, or with sliding door in open position, so if great speed is not required then fly slower.
 
Last heli shot I did were shot with the shutter at 96, it should have been at 120... motion blur should be added in post. The new warp-stabilize function in AE is great btw! No need for gyros.

BTW: It was in an R44 and vibrated like hell, but AE and warp-stabilize saved the day.
 
The Cineron is specifically designed for the Epic/Scarlet and is perfect for handheld bungie mount out the side of a full size and is small enough to be used on a RC helicopter. It is amazing footage that does not require any post stabilization. Here is a pic of a early version last time we shot with it.

Here is some footage shot with a early prototype https://vimeo.com/35672071
 

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Aaron McLane said:
The Cineron is specifically designed for the Epic/Scarlet and is perfect for handheld bungie mount out the side of a full size and is small enough to be used on a RC helicopter. It is amazing footage that does not require any post stabilization. Here is a pic of a early version last time we shot with it.

Here is some footage shot with a early prototype https://vimeo.com/35672071
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Great work Aaron!!

Cost, Availability and... Can it be mounted on anything else then RC Helys?


Like, on the Hood of a Car, hanging off an Easy rig and such or even should I dare say, HAND HELD??


This could be perfect for "RAPEofaBEAUTY" in Rome do to some restrictions.
 
Gyron also has an Epic compatible gymbal.
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Yep, Dan Wolfe, the top Gyron guy, has the only electronically stabilized aerial Epic system I know of, mountable to both heli and fixed wing aircraft, currently attached to a highly modified Cessna 337, and an A-Star turbine helicopter. His unit is very high tech, he has some genius engineers in his employ working to make it ever better. The rig provides mil-spec stabilization, be prepared to pay accordingly. Latest gig, as far as I know, was on an Alaska production with John Cusack, release date this fall I think.

KHHR, Los Angeles Hawthorne airport, is where he has his hangar. Give him a call, super nice guy, very approachable person, and very professional.
 
Tom Hamilton said:
Yep, Dan Wolfe, the top Gyron guy, has the only electronically stabilized aerial Epic system I know of, mountable to both heli and fixed wing aircraft, currently attached to a highly modified Cessna 337, and an A-Star turbine helicopter. His unit is very high tech, he has some genius engineers in his employ working to make it ever better. The rig provides mil-spec stabilization, be prepared to pay accordingly. Latest gig, as far as I know, was on an Alaska production with John Cusack, release date this fall I think.
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That's not entirely accurate, but the current incarnation of the Gyron has an Epic in place of the Sony 2/3" camera that was previously in there. The Epic's size made it ideal to place in a small gymbal not normally used for motion pictures. I'm not sure which model it's currently called now and I don't believe it's yet flown a test in the Cessna, but I don't see why it couldn't. Windspeed may be a factor since it's ideal to fly with the window off. The Gyron with the Epic can use the Angeniuex 10:1, 12:1, 4.7 and the 18-85 Fuji Premiere, but it's quite an operation to change a lens on set, as of right now. Dan Wolfe also owns Wolfe Air Aviation, which we quite often use the Epic on for air-to-air of other jets.

Pictorvision's Eclipse, which won an academy award this year for technical achievement, could also be considered "electronic", by using fiber or laser gyros instead of the mass-spinning gyros that the SpaceCam or Wescam uses, but it can use every type of cameras like the SpaceCam and Wescam. Cineflex uses only Sony cameras, Shotover is supposed to be able to all cameras but I believe has front glass, which causes reflections and other problems on the image. As does the new upgraded Cineflex from General Dynamics that is supposed to house an Alexa-M.
 
I'm pretty sure Cineflex has glass in front of it, as well?

Shotover is the system I am interested in. From what I hear, it will have more flexibility in terms of cameras it can host.
 
Tom Lowe said:
I'm pretty sure Cineflex has glass in front of it, as well?

Shotover is the system I am interested in. From what I hear, it will have more flexibility in terms of cameras it can host.
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Yes, the motors inside are not strong enough to fly without the glass on the Cineflex. Same problem on the old and newer versions.

What I last heard about the Shotover, it still had the glass in it. Same creator as the Cineflex.

I'm not sure why it would be built with the glass, as it makes a lot of shots unusable.
 
I spent a good part of march and April hanging out of a helicopter with our Epic. After much debate we had to drop any gyro as it would be too expensive for this production, due to the fact that we would have wait on the whether a lot.
I mostly shot 5K with a shutter of 1/500 and 50 or 75 fps as we knew we would need to do a lot of stabilization I'm post
I hung the camera from the roof of the helicopter with 2 thick rubber cords to help with steading the shots.
Pit worked surprisingly well. In the end I guess I had 30 hours hanging out the Heli door over those 2 months. I shot skiing and snowboarding, wingsuit base jumping, kiting and of course a lot of nature shots.
If you are shooting people, it's essential to have good communication. Walki talkies with earpiec is a lifesaver.
Its also very important to have a pilot that understands filming as often you will have to direct the pilot to get the shots you want while you are shooting your shot.

And it seems that people always get stressed during Heli shots, producers stress about the time being spent and you stress about getting th shot right, and if there are talent involved everyone getters stressed with the sound of the Heli and the fact that communication gets more difficult. So plan everything as well as you can before take off.

Good luck
 
I hung the camera from the roof of the helicopter with 2 thick rubber cords to help with steading the shots.
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Under some circumstances this is illegal.
A helicopter crashed in Idaho in 2010 with the preliminary report pointing to a clip board hitting the tail rotor, open doors are to be avoided.

Outside of war zones, filming from an open door of a helicopter or fixed wing claims more lives than any other filming activity.
Search "aerials" on reduser for other threads with saftey and shooting tips.

Remind the pilot that you can shoot at higher frame rates so he has the choice to fly the shot at a higher airspeed.
Remember that many helicopters cant hover when loaded, they need forward airspeed to maintain height. The lower you fly the less chance there is of recovering if contol is lost.
Your piot may have a wholly differnet view of risk taking than you, during the shoot you may be ignorant that you are but a strong wind gust away from being killed.

In my experience, one man band pilot-owners, without a senior pilot overseeing operations, are at higher risk of failing to manage the saftey of a shoot.


Mike Brennan
 
Yes and no. The FAA mandates any modifications to a manufacturer-certified airframe affecting the aerodynamic characteristics of said aircraft must be pre-approved by an FAA DER (Designated Engineering Representative), who will then liase with the local FSDO (Flight Standards District Office) to issue the necessary field approvals. A long and expensive process. A bungee rig attached to the roof of the cockpit, for a camera that remains inside of the cockpit, does not warrant DER approval.

That having been said, things that fly out of open doors and entangle tail rotors, especially over populated areas, at altitudes outside the proscribed FAR's (Federal Aviation Regulations), will most certainly generate a 'Careless and Reckless' violation from the FAA, entailing very substantial fines, possible jail time (depending), and certain revocation of the pilot-in-question's FAA certificates.

Not a place you'd want to go. Unless you are scoring that one single multi-million dollar shot, and can retire happily after that. :cool:


There are more 'efficient' alternatives with experimentally certified aircraft. My advice though, for what it's worth, the aerial thing is best left to the professionals, who scratch a living by accurately gaging the proximity and solidity of planet Earth, in relation to the flying machine's ever-changing angular velocities, on a daily basis, so as not to separate body and soul, once and for all.

Amen
 
Like the Gryon the Cineron X is also a electronically stabilized aerial system designed specifically for the Epic/Scarlet and small enough to go on a RC helicopter as well as a crane, jib, cablecam, car mount and even hand held. The stabilization it is cable of is incredible, you can shoot a normal 24fps with 48th shutter and it's perfect. The Cineron X will be at a camera stabilization show in Vegas next week in the Cobham booth and the Cineron guys are taking orders now.

The Gryon is simply amazing, we have worked with Dan's team and his Epic Gyron up in Alaska on the "Frozen Ground" shoot and the "End of Watch" shoot in LA and it is hands down the best aerial footage we've ever seen. We've shot hundreds of hours on the Cineflex and it's great but the Gryon and the Cineron with their Epics is a better cinematic experience.

As far as glass in front on your gimbal you want that, for a bunch of reasons, yes in the old days some people used some crap glass, but the newer Cineflex V14 and Dan's Gryon have excellent glass that when clean does not cause problems. Dan does allow the glass to come out on his Gyron and it does have the side benefit of keeping the camera even cooler but it's usually not a good idea if it's on a helicopter.
 
Aaron McLane said:
The Gryon is simply amazing, we have worked with Dan's team and his Epic Gyron up in Alaska on the "Frozen Ground" shoot and the "End of Watch" shoot in LA and it is hands down the best aerial footage we've ever seen. We've shot hundreds of hours on the Cineflex and it's great but the Gryon and the Cineron with their Epics is a better cinematic experience.
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For what reasons, exactly, is it better than CineFlex?
 
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