Life after Red

[Richard Goodwin]

Bayer patterns aside I think there are many valid issues pointed out in this post. The fact is TCO, heavy workflow, and sensitivity issues are problems that prevent RED from growing in market share as much as their technology should allow them to.

We are all spending tons of time here at reduser.net because we love RED already. It's really time that people started focusing on that commonality and started accepting and listening to users who care about RED; but are doing it by making very valid points about how they could improve.

 

[sergio arguello]

As someone who's been on both sides of a similar type argument here on the forum, I have to say that the more I learn about and understand sensor design and digital cinema camera systems, the more appreciation I have for the Epic. It is well known that I had issue with the Red One but as soon as I got my hands on an Epic, I have never looked back. Now, there is no perfect all-in-one digital motion picture camera system out there... (Yes, there is STILL much room for improvement on the Epic….) but as I go through and weigh the pros and cons of each system viable for the type of work I do (commercials, music videos, features) the Epic covers each of these tasks across the board. It's small, shoots high-speed, has high resolution, good sensitivity and dynamic range and is much more robust than the Red One was, in my opinion.

I do think the F65 is a fine camera as well. The imaging specs/data rate are very appealing on it... but it is also a tank, so it doesn't necessarily tick all of the check boxes for multiple applications... 3D? Epic's small form factor and weight win out... Handheld? Again... I could go on... Even owning an Epic, if I were considering a shooting, let’s say, a dolly-based romantic comedy, I would still test the F65 for the production…

I have shot with Alexas on many occasions, but for me, the turning point in the Alexa vs. Epic argument will be the integration of the Dragon sensor. The one area where the Alexa has won many supporters is its high dynamic range. Many directors and DPs seem to respond to the creamier highlights and soft dynamic range the Alexa produces... I argue that I TOO could put a low-con on an Epic and sneak in a little more dynamic range and gauziness to the image (as the Alexa does) , but I prefer to have that OPTION...

However, my stumbling blocks with the Alexa are multi-fold beyond just its filter stack... I am extremely dissatisfied with being forced to shoot to SxS cards and Prores... Why an manufacturer would not have a NATIVE solution to record their raw file format on-camera is beyond me. Strapping on a third-party recorder that costs as much as the camera itself is insulting, bulky and about 5 years behind the times... Charging extra to enable new firmware capability is even more infuriating... Point of fact, with their 4:3 sensor option, you cannot opt for an upgrade to your body… NOPE you have buy a whole new camera... And finally, for me, 2.8K resolution is simply not enough for today's market. Even though my arguments fall mostly on deaf ears in the industry that feels okay with a lack of upgradability, nested price increases and pocket digging, and inadequate resolution for reframing (read multi-format deliverables) stabilization, padding for post convergence for 3D, and most importantly optimal MTF performance for 2K and, dare I say, 4K delivery. Alexa propenents will not be swayed… In fact, MANY in the industry feel that 2.8K isn’t even necessary… They shoot to sub-HD resolution Prores files, STILL perform transcodes to edit (why this seems “easier” than the same steps to edit redcode makes NO SENSE) and then they decide that these mid-level, compressed codecs look “good enough” and output those files to be color corrected on… So arguing the benefits of a 5K+ sensor means little.

The cinematographers on these projects are equally guilty for not understanding what is happening to their images. As protectors of the image, shame on them for not educating them selves on this changing technology, shame on them for not guarding the image all of the way through post and fighting this “good enough,” dummied-down mentality seeming to spring up at every turn.

I eagerly await the Dragon upgrade on my camera so I can snuff out the last feasible argument directors or producers can throw at me to shoot an Alexa over an Epic… Dynamic range and sensitive, for now, are the be-all, end-all for a perceived “film look” out of a digital camera. That’s fine. I cannot begin to count the number of jobs I have been offered based on my work (all shot with Epic) where they say, “ We want to shoot Alexa…” I of course then ask why they want to shoot Alexa, they really don’t have concrete arguments other than platitudes of ease of use, creamy highlight, blah, blah, blah… I then say, “Well, you hired me based on my work, right? You obviously liked the way it looked, because that was all shot on Epic!” 90% of the time, we shoot Epic.

I support Red’s business model and continued push for improvements. If only I could have all of them immediately! But then where’s the fun in anticipation then? I will add that Arri's smart move would be to cut their price increases and licensing fees, offer affordable upgrade paths for future improvements and release at LEAST a 4K sensor into the camera immediately... Basically COPY Red’s business model… But with their saturation in the market and blind devotees, they have less incentive to raise their bar rather than milk the current one for as long as possible.

nicely put Mr Probst.

..my question to you is why, if you have the ears of the community as a whole, as the technical Editor of American Cinematographer dont you write a elaborate expansive article on just this subject? Is it not your "duty" to educate the readers of that periodical
about this exact subject.

ps. where is my strat?

 

[Christopher Probst]

Hey Sergio, who says I didn't?

;-)

Last May/June we published an extensive 2-part article about how digital imagers originated, function and are implemented. I tried to be as agnostic as possible in my reporting and listened to all of the vendors/engineers interested in voicing an opinion. I also repeatedly pleaded with Red to contribute to the article but was declined. (which was partially my fault since they were gun shy from my previous article about my experiences working with the Red One...

With that said, though, American Cinematographer is not my personal opinion soapbox. It's not my magazine to vent on any topic I choose on a whim. More to the point, any article I do, I want to do the the best of my abilities. And that usually means months of research, interviewing, transcribing, illustrating and writing. Frankly, I'm too damn busy! Plus I have to edit the magazine every month and now Vilmos' school GCI is hounding me to teach more courses there... I'm rapidly heading for a divorce that this rate!

 

[Martin Stevens]

As someone who's been on both sides of a similar type argument here on the forum, I have to say that the more I learn about and understand sensor design and digital cinema camera systems, the more appreciation I have for the Epic. It is well known that I had issue with the Red One but as soon as I got my hands on an Epic, I have never looked back. Now, there is no perfect all-in-one digital motion picture camera system out there... (Yes, there is STILL much room for improvement on the Epic….) but as I go through and weigh the pros and cons of each system viable for the type of work I do (commercials, music videos, features) the Epic covers each of these tasks across the board. It's small, shoots high-speed, has high resolution, good sensitivity and dynamic range and is much more robust than the Red One was, in my opinion.

I do think the F65 is a fine camera as well. The imaging specs/data rate are very appealing on it... but it is also a tank, so it doesn't necessarily tick all of the check boxes for multiple applications... 3D? Epic's small form factor and weight win out... Handheld? Again... I could go on... Even owning an Epic, if I were considering a shooting, let’s say, a dolly-based romantic comedy, I would still test the F65 for the production…

I have shot with Alexas on many occasions, but for me, the turning point in the Alexa vs. Epic argument will be the integration of the Dragon sensor. The one area where the Alexa has won many supporters is its high dynamic range. Many directors and DPs seem to respond to the creamier highlights and soft dynamic range the Alexa produces... I argue that I TOO could put a low-con on an Epic and sneak in a little more dynamic range and gauziness to the image (as the Alexa does) , but I prefer to have that OPTION...

However, my stumbling blocks with the Alexa are multi-fold beyond just its filter stack... I am extremely dissatisfied with being forced to shoot to SxS cards and Prores... Why an manufacturer would not have a NATIVE solution to record their raw file format on-camera is beyond me. Strapping on a third-party recorder that costs as much as the camera itself is insulting, bulky and about 5 years behind the times... Charging extra to enable new firmware capability is even more infuriating... Point of fact, with their 4:3 sensor option, you cannot opt for an upgrade to your body… NOPE you have buy a whole new camera... And finally, for me, 2.8K resolution is simply not enough for today's market. Even though my arguments fall mostly on deaf ears in the industry that feels okay with a lack of upgradability, nested price increases and pocket digging, and inadequate resolution for reframing (read multi-format deliverables) stabilization, padding for post convergence for 3D, and most importantly optimal MTF performance for 2K and, dare I say, 4K delivery. Alexa propenents will not be swayed… In fact, MANY in the industry feel that 2.8K isn’t even necessary… They shoot to sub-HD resolution Prores files, STILL perform transcodes to edit (why this seems “easier” than the same steps to edit redcode makes NO SENSE) and then they decide that these mid-level, compressed codecs look “good enough” and output those files to be color corrected on… So arguing the benefits of a 5K+ sensor means little.

The cinematographers on these projects are equally guilty for not understanding what is happening to their images. As protectors of the image, shame on them for not educating them selves on this changing technology, shame on them for not guarding the image all of the way through post and fighting this “good enough,” dummied-down mentality seeming to spring up at every turn.

I eagerly await the Dragon upgrade on my camera so I can snuff out the last feasible argument directors or producers can throw at me to shoot an Alexa over an Epic… Dynamic range and sensitive, for now, are the be-all, end-all for a perceived “film look” out of a digital camera. That’s fine. I cannot begin to count the number of jobs I have been offered based on my work (all shot with Epic) where they say, “ We want to shoot Alexa…” I of course then ask why they want to shoot Alexa, they really don’t have concrete arguments other than platitudes of ease of use, creamy highlight, blah, blah, blah… I then say, “Well, you hired me based on my work, right? You obviously liked the way it looked, because that was all shot on Epic!” 90% of the time, we shoot Epic.

I support Red’s business model and continued push for improvements. If only I could have all of them immediately! But then where’s the fun in anticipation then? I will add that Arri's smart move would be to cut their price increases and licensing fees, offer affordable upgrade paths for future improvements and release at LEAST a 4K sensor into the camera immediately... Basically COPY Red’s business model… But with their saturation in the market and blind devotees, they have less incentive to raise their bar rather than milk the current one for as long as possible.

Truly great post, Mister Probst!

Thank you for your insight.

 

[Mike P.]

To me the problem with other cameras that are $12k+ but only record 1080p (like the C300, F3, 1D-C, and even Alexa for the most part) is that for similar money, you can get a Scarlet with an off board prores/dnxhd recorder. Gives you 4k RAW when you want it, and (with fw3.3) 5k-supersampled-1080p when you don't.

When internal s35 4k comes to other cameras (presumably NAB 2013) people will have been using their Scarlet's for a year (hopefully making money in that time). Now if the competition's 4k cameras are in the $5k-$8k price-range (all-in, shootable, with internal 4k RAW, XLRs... the works), then RED is going to be hurting on the Scarlet front (especially considering that the Dragon upgrade is probably going to cost that much... at that price point, 'obsolesce obsolete' will be full of holes for Scarlet users.) And given that the BlackMagic DCC is s16RAW for $3k, a 4k s35 RAW camera could very well be within that $5-8k range next year.

All of that said, there's a lot of hypotheticals and hyperbole in Sutton's article (and in my comments.) Fact is, if you can wait a year to purchase a camera, then you should probably just be renting anyway (or going with a sub-$1g DSLR, like the GH2.)

 

[Daniel Stilling]

The fact is TCO, heavy workflow, and sensitivity issues are problems that prevent RED from growing in market share as much as their technology should allow them to.

I have to respectfully disagree with the heavy workflow issue. I am currently cutting a music video on my 2008 Macbook Pro. Using Premiere 6 I'm cutting 4K footage from my Scarlet without hiccups and transcoding.
If I need to deliver 1080 footage I'll bring my Pix and use that. No transcoding. It works and not more cumbersome than before...

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

I don't waste time thinking on areas where our cameras are less than perfect (because all products made are less than perfect) because I'm way too busy working on improvements.

I think that might come across as slightly mis-stated, Graeme; I'm damn sure you spend quite a lot of time thinking about the less than perfect areas - and I'm sure every professional here is the same, we're all our own worst critics. Every time I look at something I shot, in post or later, I look and can't help thinking of the things I could have done better.

Of course once in a while it all comes together and you think 'shit, did I do that?!'

And Steve, in defence of the slightly defensive tone that sometimes gets adopted here by some posters, I think this dates back to the early days of RED, when it was clearly a scam which would never produce any cameras and people who had actually given good money to Jim were ridiculed by some in the business as suckers plain and simple...

My take? You make some good points, I've never been an uncritical RED fanboy, I've criticized and called BS when it's required. I would agree with the point made by many other posters; the EPIC isn't a perfect camera by any means, but it's the nearest thing to a Swiss army knife camera; I can trick it out for a big cinema production or strip it down to a handle, a viewfinder and a stills zoom, throw it in a backpack, carry it up a volcano, and shoot 5K RAW stills or motion when I get there. Try doing THAT with an F65 or Alexa!

Big things wrong with EPIC that need fixing?

- proper stills features like auto-bracketing, short burst stills, long exposures, intervalometer - pretty critical for my work.
- better DR / low-light performance / noise floor - they're certainly not *bad*, but could be better.
- much better power management; you practically need one Redvolt to set the shot up then a second to actually expose it. It's a bit of a joke, my Redvolts... don't see a lot of use!

And you know what? Jim has shaken my hand, asked me what I think of my EPIC, and listened to what I had to say. I've never had, and don't expect to have, that treatment from the CEOs of Sony, Arri, Nikon or Canon. That matters.

Mike

 

[Martin Stevens]

And you know what? Jim has shaken my hand, asked me what I think of my EPIC, and listened to what I had to say. I've never had, and don't expect to have, that treatment from the CEOs of Sony, Arri, Nikon or Canon. That matters.

Mike

Very nice!

I'll never forget the day years ago that Jim told me at NAB that MORE Dynamic Range is coming.

 

[Joseph Hutson]

And Joseph, when are you bringing me to Dubai?

Cheers,

Peter

As soon as I can! I wish it had already have happened. I miss seeing you around... I'll definitely pass on the greetings.

 

[Russ Fill]

Michael, the info and ideas in your article, have created one of the most interesting REDUSER.net threads.
Thanks for opening the can of worms.
I have learned more from this thread than others in quite a while. Most bits of info have just reassured my choices but its always a pleasure to see other ideas on similar subjects.

Joseph is right, you might find out more or gain a little more info with a slightly different approach or softer hand.

 

[Dominik Muench]

a smaller, lighter cheaper, 4K camera ???? here you go: http://www.petapixel.com/2012/07/01/the-flea3-webcam-the-worlds-smallest-4k-camera/#more-62208 ^^

 

[Brian Merlen]

wow, a 4k webcam! talk about some high density retina stripping!

 

[Jaakko Rinne]

a smaller, lighter cheaper, 4K camera ???? here you go: http://www.petapixel.com/2012/07/01/the-flea3-webcam-the-worlds-smallest-4k-camera/#more-62208 ^^

Well, that's just silly. The 4K model only does 21fps.

 

[Dominik Muench]

Well, that's just silly. The 4K model only does 21fps.

enough to see scantly clad strippers asking for my credit card details ^^

 

[conrad gaunt]

ha, they're suggesting red sould find a better bayer pattern that incorporates more green pixels.. since the standard pattern incorporates twice as many green pixels as red and blue, and diagonally at full resolution no less.. this implies he feels red cameras have too many red and blue photosites.. im not convinced this change should happen soon .. although other interesting patterns do exist..

 

[Michael N. Sutton]

For everyone who thinks I am hating on Red, please know that my next post on www.wideopencamera.com is what I like about the EPIC. Ya, its true, I can like something and be critical of it. Same goes for Sony, Canon, and everyone else. Go figure.

 

[Clint Lealos]

For everyone who thinks I am hating on Red, please know that my next post on www.wideopencamera.com is what I like about the EPIC. Ya, its true, I can like something and be critical of it. Same goes for Sony, Canon, and everyone else. Go figure.

This is called patronizing... nobody likes it.

 

[Michael N. Sutton]

Clint I am only basing my comment on the hate emails and comments here suggesting I am biased against Red (even know I use Epic's often enough). Critique doesn't fly well in this forum unless its directed at other camera companies. I don't think this is news to anyone who ventures outside of this board.

 

[Scott Crawley]

OK,

Mike posted some technically inaccurate info about Red in his blog. He was corrected. He was insulted.

Time to move on... Nothing else to see here.

 

[Michael N. Sutton]

Scott not insulted and made some modifications. Didn't change what Red marketing / tech wanted.

Red isn't the only sensor designer and not all that is presented as fact here in this forum is accurate regarding Bayer patterns (according to non Red employee's

The overly defensive attitudes here amaze me. Talking about a camera and what can be improved. Relax and let down your guard.